I dont how to define "greatness". As I read once agin read the mail I wrote afer reading your response, I am aware certain subtle but definite issues about the question you raise.
If there are mopre responses, I believe we need to wait for that. Reponse may perhaps precisley raise issues concerned with Indian stream of postcolonial thought. On 6/30/08, Bobby Kunhu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Not you, in general, where does greatness lie? Whose knowledge? episteme? > where? who defines? > > On 30/06/2008, damodar prasad <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> >> >> On 6/30/08, Bobby Kunhu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>> >>> Since Iliahah's award came up for discussion here, I remember a "we the >>> people" on the run up to Durban, where Ilaiah and Nandy were on the panel on >>> the question whether caste was race - of course, rightfully Ilaiah stole the >>> show with his dramatics against the *greatness* of Nandy's rhetoric. >>> have a curious question.... *where is India and who are the greats?* >>> *In mere curiosity* >>> >> >> A good question indeed. If you are adressing it to me. I fail to find an >> answer. Truly >> >> >> >> >>> On 30/06/2008, damodar prasad <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>>> >>>> Since we commented on Habermas, why should we leave Ashish Nandy. >>>> >>>> To begin with a personal remark, some years ago, when I read Ashish >>>> Nandy for the first time, intimate enemy, it was a mind-opener. I didnt >>>> have any doubt that he is the *greatest* thinker India has produced. >>>> Subsequent to this, I dd read his other works on gandhi assasination, >>>> tagore, nationalism, popular cinema, jagdish bose, ramanujan, indira >>>> gandhi, >>>> utopia and tyranny, time warps. Along with these, we did also read many new >>>> writers. By that time I felt he is *greater* writer than say Nirad C >>>> Cahuduri ( very opposite positions) etc. But the life was moving, we found >>>> new writers and scholars like deepesh, parthachaterjee, mss pandian, dk >>>> nagraj, uma chakraborthy, Chandar bhan prasad. >>>> >>>> (I have a "villaku" in FEC for naming scholars-pls. alow me here- ;-), >>>> >>>> Then I found him as one of the *great *thinkers. ( But I admire his >>>> foresight on Narendra Modi. >>>> >>>> There is a diminshing value with regard to Asish Nandy. >>>> >>>> As Dileep mentoned in some other mail about frame work. I think he has a >>>> framework, which he applies everywhere- be that Sati or T20 game. >>>> >>>> Even in this interview, I see an extreme clairty- which is an excessive >>>> transparency. No confusions, hence it lacks 'probing'. >>>> >>>> Writers and Thinkers need to leave amibigous spaces in their writings so >>>> that his contemporaries and generations coming next can read delve deep >>>> into >>>> their work. >>>> >>>> But let me also state that, the interview and answers are fine. >>>> Politically enagaging . >>>> >>>> But the interviewee is mimcking a thinker by name Ashish Nandy. >>>> >>>> Damodar Prasad >>>> >>>> >>>> On 6/30/08, C.K. Vishwanath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> From Tehelka Magazine, Vol 5, Issue 26, Dated July 05, 2008 >>>>> CURRENT AFFAIRS >>>>> interview >>>>> >>>>> 'The middle class wants development backed by authoritarianism' >>>>> >>>>> Amid rows of books in the Delhi office of political psychologist Ashis >>>>> Nandy is a painting that's striking in its sordidness: the head of a dead >>>>> politician enveloped in a floppy garland, surrounded by numerous tags >>>>> displaying his numerous identities. Ever the political dissenter, Nandy is >>>>> back in news after the Ahmedabad- based National Council for Civil >>>>> Liberties >>>>> filed a case against him for his article, Blame the Middle Class, >>>>> published >>>>> in The Times of India in January, analysing Gujarat Chief Minister >>>>> Narendra >>>>> Modi's victory in the Assembly elections. The charge against Nandy is >>>>> "promoting enmity between different groups on grounds of religion, race, >>>>> place of birth and language". Some 178 academics and intellectuals have >>>>> signed a statement to protest the case against Nandy ( >>>>> http://www.sacw.net/FreeExpAndFundos/ defendNandy16June08.html). In an >>>>> interview with TUSHA MITTAL, Nandy explains how modernity is devastating >>>>> India. >>>>> >>>>> How has your understanding of India changed over the years? >>>>> >>>>> Like every other Bengali from Calcutta, I had a political edge to >>>>> everything I did, but little empathy for the world outside the cities. >>>>> Theoretically, I might have been committed to the people of India, but in >>>>> practice they were an abstract category. Things began to change >>>>> dramatically >>>>> when I came to the Centre for the Study of Developing Societies. We >>>>> studied >>>>> politics empirically, and I realised its pervasive presence in Indian >>>>> social >>>>> life, how much of a pace-setting agency it really is. A second major >>>>> change >>>>> came with the Emergency. Neither my political studies nor my understanding >>>>> of Indian politics had prepared me for it. It was a shock. Then, I began >>>>> to >>>>> look for new ways of looking at Indian politics. My discovery of Gandhi >>>>> happened at that time. I had always disliked Gandhi: his allegiances had >>>>> looked primordial; his style a deviation from our idea of cosmopolitanism; >>>>> his politics anti-modern. But I rediscovered Gandhi. I became more >>>>> sceptical >>>>> of >>>>> the Indian state, which was modelled on the colonial state that had >>>>> ruled us. I saw that the categories that dominated Indian politics had no >>>>> openness to the experiences of a majority of Indians. Often, as with terms >>>>> like 'secular', they could not even be translated into vernacular >>>>> languages. >>>>> >>>>> Would you say the secular project in India has failed, that we have >>>>> failed to merge ground realities with our idea of liberal secularism? >>>>> >>>>> Absolutely! Secularism is a tool to achieve certain goals of tolerance >>>>> and amity. It has not been able to touch the heart of most Indians, who >>>>> have >>>>> found it flawed, an abstraction used for political purposes only. I think >>>>> we >>>>> would gain much more if we entered it through the various cultural and >>>>> religious traditions of India to confront the forces fomenting communal >>>>> conflict. They are actually anti-Hindu and anti-Islam. They will destroy >>>>> these faiths in the arrogant belief that they can defend them. We don't >>>>> defend faiths; faith defends us. In fact, the people often called >>>>> religious >>>>> fanatics usually did not care about religion. They were modernists who >>>>> wanted a European- style nation state in India. They considered Gandhi >>>>> primitive because he brought into politics ideas such as fasting and >>>>> nonviolence. Gandhi was the counter-modernist who said that modernism was >>>>> an >>>>> intrusion in Indian culture and could only devastate India culturally, >>>>> economically and >>>>> socially, [that] it is intrinsically hostile to India's environment, >>>>> local knowledge systems and diversity. Ethnic and religious conflict is a >>>>> pathological expression of modernity, not of tradition. The way >>>>> modernisation is conceptualised leads to genocides; an enormous degree of >>>>> violence; the demolition of civilisations. >>>>> >>>>> Can you give an example? >>>>> >>>>> I did a major study on sati, the first in contemporary times. I showed >>>>> that sati epidemics primarily occurred when a community was under attack. >>>>> For example, sati in late 18th and early 19th century was a direct product >>>>> of the colonial political economy, the kind of collapse of traditional >>>>> norms >>>>> then taking place in India, the monetisation of the economy and human >>>>> relationships. Half the cases of >>>>> Photo: Shailendra Pandey >>>>> >>>>> Sati took place in Calcutta and its slums not in villages. >>>>> >>>>> In your article, 'Gujarat: Blame the Middle Class', you talked about >>>>> how development has de-civilised society, leaving only a shrinking space >>>>> for >>>>> the life of the mind. >>>>> >>>>> This is a product of democratic processes. The people entering the >>>>> middle class do not have middle-class values. They only have middle-class >>>>> incomes. They have neither the traditional nor the modern concept of >>>>> cosmopolitanism. They have just risen in the social hierarchy. They have >>>>> only middleclass consumption. >>>>> >>>>> What are these middle class values? >>>>> >>>>> Some degree of tolerance and the ability to live with minority views >>>>> which are different from yours; some acceptance that you do not protect >>>>> divinities, that divinities can protect themselves. >>>>> >>>>> You have used the term 'cultural desert' for Gujarat. >>>>> >>>>> Gujarat has produced an intellectual culture where some of the finest >>>>> minds, thinkers, writers, artists don't feel comfortable at all. Perhaps >>>>> it >>>>> is not America but Singapore that is their utopia, at least in the short >>>>> run. They want Singapore-style development. Even though they won't admit >>>>> it, >>>>> they are looking forward not only to Singapore-style malls but also to >>>>> Singapore-style authoritarian prime ministers. Large numbers of the middle >>>>> class are now perfectly willing to sacrifice large sections of the society >>>>> for the sake of development. In most countries, spectacular development >>>>> has >>>>> been associated with spectacular authoritarianism. Not only Singapore, >>>>> China >>>>> is a very good example. The enormous diversity of India has always >>>>> troubled >>>>> modern Indians. They think some degree of homogenisation imposed from >>>>> above >>>>> is the perfect remedy for India's ills. They think they are the strict >>>>> school teachers who can teach the rest of India how to behave when >>>>> the government takes away land for SEZs, when it builds mega dams. They >>>>> want to shut their eyes to what development really means. They are its >>>>> beneficiaries and feel it must be protected at all costs. >>>>> >>>>> What is your idea of a post-secular world? >>>>> >>>>> Everybody predicted the demise of religion in the 19th century. Yet, at >>>>> the beginning of the 21st century, we find religion stronger than ever. It >>>>> has re-emerged from its isolation and marginalisation in a big way, taking >>>>> advantage of the democratic process. Unless we learn the language of >>>>> religion and enter the people's mind through that path, we have no way of >>>>> truly influencing their choices. That's why one of the most creative >>>>> persons >>>>> of our time, Gandhi, said that people who say religion and politics have >>>>> nothing to do with each other understand neither religion nor politics. >>>>> Other creative persons who may or may not call themselves Gandhian follow >>>>> that method. The Dalai Lama, Nelson Mandela, Desmond Tutu, Martin Luther >>>>> King — they have all used religion very creatively. In India, people like >>>>> Baba Amte and Sunder Lal Bahuguna never attacked religion; Swami Agnivesh >>>>> has never put away his saffron robes. When you talk of saffronisation, it >>>>> offends most Hindus. Saffron is not the colour of extremism. It is the >>>>> colour of renunciation — sanyasis wear saffron. Extremists have hijacked >>>>> it >>>>> because we allowed them to; they have hijacked it even when they don't >>>>> believe in it themselves. [VD] Savarkar was an atheist. He didn't believe >>>>> in >>>>> Hinduism but produced the bible of Hindutva. Hindutva is a political >>>>> ideology while Hinduism is a form of faith. Ideologies enter when faiths >>>>> become weak and do not have a meaning for people. Hindutva is a way of >>>>> using >>>>> Hindu sentiments politically to push towards the development of a Hindu >>>>> nation state. The concept of a nation state is not Hindu. It is a >>>>> 19th-century European concept, but Europe is moving away from it while we >>>>> continue to cling to it. As Rabindranath Tagore once said, India trying to >>>>> build a nation is like Switzerland trying to build a navy. >>>>> >>>>> What prompts people who were once part of the Left to turn to the BJP? >>>>> >>>>> Psychologically, the Leftist and the Hindutva ideologies are not far >>>>> from each other. They offer the same kind of closure, the feeling of >>>>> having >>>>> reached an absolute truth by which to live. People who have faith don't >>>>> usually have strong ideologies. But many Indians also have blind faith in >>>>> ideologies because they feel if they don't have the support of an >>>>> ideology, >>>>> the meaning of life will collapse. >>>>> >>>>> What about young Indians?Are they clinging to ideology as a means of >>>>> security? >>>>> >>>>> Like our politicians, the young are increasingly getting >>>>> de-ideologised. They don't understand Hindutva but they have picked up its >>>>> slogans as ideology. They cling to it with the passion of a lover because >>>>> without that clinging, they feel they will not be able to call themselves >>>>> Hindu, because otherwise they are going out and downing beef hamburgers. >>>>> Alternatively, they are moving towards a new, generic version of Hinduism >>>>> obtained from gurus. This flooding of the market with gurus has also come >>>>> from this need. You could be a Malayali working in Himachal Pradesh. You >>>>> have no access to your own village gods and goddesses, to the Malayali >>>>> version of Hinduism with which you have lived — it doesn't even make sense >>>>> to you anymore. Then you take a generic version of the faith [from the >>>>> gurus]. Somehow it gives you solace, a feeling that you are part of the >>>>> Hindu community. >>>>> >>>>> So are we losing Hinduism's diversity? >>>>> >>>>> Hinduism is becoming a faith in the way that Christianity in many parts >>>>> of the West is a faith. That wasn't our concept of religion. Today, there >>>>> are many in India willing to fight for the cause of India to the last >>>>> Indian. Exactly as in Islam: they are many willing to fight for Islam >>>>> until >>>>> the last Muslim. They despise Muslims for not participating in the >>>>> struggle >>>>> and don't care how many of them die. Because they have very little >>>>> compassion for Muslims, their compassion is reserved for the vague idea of >>>>> Islam. Similarly, in India you will find a lot of people who have a vague >>>>> idea of what India is — they have a statist, mechanical concept of India >>>>> and >>>>> of Hinduism, and they are willing to sacrifice a million people to achieve >>>>> that end. But the Indian state is the Indian culture and that extends from >>>>> South Vietnam all the way to the borders of Persia. >>>>> >>>>> What about Islam in India? How has it changed over the years? >>>>> >>>>> We are seeing an Arabisation of Islam in India. At one time, Indian >>>>> Muslims were proud that their Islam represented the best of the world's >>>>> traditions. But they are increasingly losing that confidence, as a direct >>>>> product of 19th-century European scholars who claimed that West Asian >>>>> Islam >>>>> was the real Islam while other strands were influenced by local religions. >>>>> These scholars endorsed fundamentalist Islam as the real Islam. The hijab, >>>>> for example, was introduced in Indonesia by Western-educated women because >>>>> they felt the Islam of their parents was not good enough. The same thing >>>>> is >>>>> happening in India. Muslims are virtually in uniform with skull caps and >>>>> kurta-pyjama. >>>>> >>>>> What are some of the biggest challenges India is to face? >>>>> >>>>> How do we stop the fact that our economic and social vision is very >>>>> close to writing off the bottom 10 percent of our society. We would be >>>>> happy >>>>> if they were all dead. How do we find people who will use the language of >>>>> religion to re-enter the public imagination, someone who will re-enter as >>>>> a >>>>> person, articulating principles in direct continuation with his or her >>>>> religion, without practising the dominant slogans of the pack. There are >>>>> many, even our finance minister, who seem to believe that "development" >>>>> and >>>>> industrialisation are the way out of poverty, as that is the only model of >>>>> social change they have learnt. America consumes 30 percent of the world's >>>>> resources with only six percent of its population. But we are not six >>>>> percent of the world's population. To become America we will have to kill >>>>> off everybody else in the world and consume all the world's resources and >>>>> even then we will not have the American standard of living. According to a >>>>> prediction, the Ganga will die out in 28 years. Something like that >>>>> will probably awaken the consciousness of the people. >>>>> >>>>> Why is the space for dissent shrinking? >>>>> >>>>> Their own conviction in their being right is so small. Because they are >>>>> themselves not convinced that what they are doing is right, they look at >>>>> all >>>>> dissent as an attack, not only on their ideas but on them directly. You >>>>> are >>>>> planting the idea in their mind, making them think that they could be >>>>> wrong >>>>> — that is their fear. >>>>> >>>>> You've called history an overrated discipline. Why? >>>>> >>>>> Every community of India has its own history, not only in terms of jati >>>>> puranas but their own mythic history: memories handed down for >>>>> generations. >>>>> There are many ways of constructing the past, history is only one of them. >>>>> But with this passion for history that came to India in the 19th century, >>>>> everything has been "historised". That, I think, has diminished us. Today, >>>>> history is a major part of the knowledge industry, but that no longer >>>>> enhances us. This search for truth about the past closes many pasts. >>>>> From Tehelka Magazine, Vol 5, Issue 26, Dated July >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Bobby Kunhu >> >> >> > > > -- > Bobby Kunhu --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Green Youth Movement" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/greenyouth?hl=en-GB -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
