On 7/1/08, damodar prasad <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I dont how to define "greatness". As I read once agin read the mail I wrote > afer reading your response*, I am aware about the certain subtle but > definite issues regarding** the question you raise. > > If there are mopre responses, I believe we need to wait for that. Reponse > may perhaps precisley raise issues concerned with Indian stream of > postcolonial thought. >
* corrected On 6/30/08, Bobby Kunhu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> Not you, in general, where does greatness lie? Whose knowledge? episteme? >> where? who defines? >> >> On 30/06/2008, damodar prasad <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On 6/30/08, Bobby Kunhu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>>> >>>> Since Iliahah's award came up for discussion here, I remember a "we the >>>> people" on the run up to Durban, where Ilaiah and Nandy were on the panel >>>> on >>>> the question whether caste was race - of course, rightfully Ilaiah stole >>>> the >>>> show with his dramatics against the *greatness* of Nandy's rhetoric. >>>> have a curious question.... *where is India and who are the greats?* >>>> *In mere curiosity* >>>> >>> >>> A good question indeed. If you are adressing it to me. I fail to find an >>> answer. Truly >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> On 30/06/2008, damodar prasad <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Since we commented on Habermas, why should we leave Ashish Nandy. >>>>> >>>>> To begin with a personal remark, some years ago, when I read Ashish >>>>> Nandy for the first time, intimate enemy, it was a mind-opener. I didnt >>>>> have any doubt that he is the *greatest* thinker India has produced. >>>>> Subsequent to this, I dd read his other works on gandhi assasination, >>>>> tagore, nationalism, popular cinema, jagdish bose, ramanujan, indira >>>>> gandhi, >>>>> utopia and tyranny, time warps. Along with these, we did also read many >>>>> new >>>>> writers. By that time I felt he is *greater* writer than say Nirad C >>>>> Cahuduri ( very opposite positions) etc. But the life was moving, we found >>>>> new writers and scholars like deepesh, parthachaterjee, mss pandian, dk >>>>> nagraj, uma chakraborthy, Chandar bhan prasad. >>>>> >>>>> (I have a "villaku" in FEC for naming scholars-pls. alow me here- ;-), >>>>> >>>>> Then I found him as one of the *great *thinkers. ( But I admire his >>>>> foresight on Narendra Modi. >>>>> >>>>> There is a diminshing value with regard to Asish Nandy. >>>>> >>>>> As Dileep mentoned in some other mail about frame work. I think he has >>>>> a framework, which he applies everywhere- be that Sati or T20 game. >>>>> >>>>> Even in this interview, I see an extreme clairty- which is an excessive >>>>> transparency. No confusions, hence it lacks 'probing'. >>>>> >>>>> Writers and Thinkers need to leave amibigous spaces in their writings >>>>> so that his contemporaries and generations coming next can read delve deep >>>>> into their work. >>>>> >>>>> But let me also state that, the interview and answers are fine. >>>>> Politically enagaging . >>>>> >>>>> But the interviewee is mimcking a thinker by name Ashish Nandy. >>>>> >>>>> Damodar Prasad >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 6/30/08, C.K. Vishwanath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> From Tehelka Magazine, Vol 5, Issue 26, Dated July 05, 2008 >>>>>> CURRENT AFFAIRS >>>>>> interview >>>>>> >>>>>> 'The middle class wants development backed by authoritarianism' >>>>>> >>>>>> Amid rows of books in the Delhi office of political psychologist Ashis >>>>>> Nandy is a painting that's striking in its sordidness: the head of a dead >>>>>> politician enveloped in a floppy garland, surrounded by numerous tags >>>>>> displaying his numerous identities. Ever the political dissenter, Nandy >>>>>> is >>>>>> back in news after the Ahmedabad- based National Council for Civil >>>>>> Liberties >>>>>> filed a case against him for his article, Blame the Middle Class, >>>>>> published >>>>>> in The Times of India in January, analysing Gujarat Chief Minister >>>>>> Narendra >>>>>> Modi's victory in the Assembly elections. The charge against Nandy is >>>>>> "promoting enmity between different groups on grounds of religion, race, >>>>>> place of birth and language". Some 178 academics and intellectuals have >>>>>> signed a statement to protest the case against Nandy ( >>>>>> http://www.sacw.net/FreeExpAndFundos/ defendNandy16June08.html). In >>>>>> an interview with TUSHA MITTAL, Nandy explains how modernity is >>>>>> devastating >>>>>> India. >>>>>> >>>>>> How has your understanding of India changed over the years? >>>>>> >>>>>> Like every other Bengali from Calcutta, I had a political edge to >>>>>> everything I did, but little empathy for the world outside the cities. >>>>>> Theoretically, I might have been committed to the people of India, but in >>>>>> practice they were an abstract category. Things began to change >>>>>> dramatically >>>>>> when I came to the Centre for the Study of Developing Societies. We >>>>>> studied >>>>>> politics empirically, and I realised its pervasive presence in Indian >>>>>> social >>>>>> life, how much of a pace-setting agency it really is. A second major >>>>>> change >>>>>> came with the Emergency. Neither my political studies nor my >>>>>> understanding >>>>>> of Indian politics had prepared me for it. It was a shock. Then, I began >>>>>> to >>>>>> look for new ways of looking at Indian politics. My discovery of Gandhi >>>>>> happened at that time. I had always disliked Gandhi: his allegiances had >>>>>> looked primordial; his style a deviation from our idea of >>>>>> cosmopolitanism; >>>>>> his politics anti-modern. But I rediscovered Gandhi. I became more >>>>>> sceptical >>>>>> of >>>>>> the Indian state, which was modelled on the colonial state that had >>>>>> ruled us. I saw that the categories that dominated Indian politics had no >>>>>> openness to the experiences of a majority of Indians. Often, as with >>>>>> terms >>>>>> like 'secular', they could not even be translated into vernacular >>>>>> languages. >>>>>> >>>>>> Would you say the secular project in India has failed, that we have >>>>>> failed to merge ground realities with our idea of liberal secularism? >>>>>> >>>>>> Absolutely! Secularism is a tool to achieve certain goals of tolerance >>>>>> and amity. It has not been able to touch the heart of most Indians, who >>>>>> have >>>>>> found it flawed, an abstraction used for political purposes only. I >>>>>> think we >>>>>> would gain much more if we entered it through the various cultural and >>>>>> religious traditions of India to confront the forces fomenting communal >>>>>> conflict. They are actually anti-Hindu and anti-Islam. They will destroy >>>>>> these faiths in the arrogant belief that they can defend them. We don't >>>>>> defend faiths; faith defends us. In fact, the people often called >>>>>> religious >>>>>> fanatics usually did not care about religion. They were modernists who >>>>>> wanted a European- style nation state in India. They considered Gandhi >>>>>> primitive because he brought into politics ideas such as fasting and >>>>>> nonviolence. Gandhi was the counter-modernist who said that modernism >>>>>> was an >>>>>> intrusion in Indian culture and could only devastate India culturally, >>>>>> economically and >>>>>> socially, [that] it is intrinsically hostile to India's environment, >>>>>> local knowledge systems and diversity. Ethnic and religious conflict is a >>>>>> pathological expression of modernity, not of tradition. The way >>>>>> modernisation is conceptualised leads to genocides; an enormous degree of >>>>>> violence; the demolition of civilisations. >>>>>> >>>>>> Can you give an example? >>>>>> >>>>>> I did a major study on sati, the first in contemporary times. I showed >>>>>> that sati epidemics primarily occurred when a community was under attack. >>>>>> For example, sati in late 18th and early 19th century was a direct >>>>>> product >>>>>> of the colonial political economy, the kind of collapse of traditional >>>>>> norms >>>>>> then taking place in India, the monetisation of the economy and human >>>>>> relationships. Half the cases of >>>>>> Photo: Shailendra Pandey >>>>>> >>>>>> Sati took place in Calcutta and its slums not in villages. >>>>>> >>>>>> In your article, 'Gujarat: Blame the Middle Class', you talked about >>>>>> how development has de-civilised society, leaving only a shrinking space >>>>>> for >>>>>> the life of the mind. >>>>>> >>>>>> This is a product of democratic processes. The people entering the >>>>>> middle class do not have middle-class values. They only have middle-class >>>>>> incomes. They have neither the traditional nor the modern concept of >>>>>> cosmopolitanism. They have just risen in the social hierarchy. They have >>>>>> only middleclass consumption. >>>>>> >>>>>> What are these middle class values? >>>>>> >>>>>> Some degree of tolerance and the ability to live with minority views >>>>>> which are different from yours; some acceptance that you do not protect >>>>>> divinities, that divinities can protect themselves. >>>>>> >>>>>> You have used the term 'cultural desert' for Gujarat. >>>>>> >>>>>> Gujarat has produced an intellectual culture where some of the finest >>>>>> minds, thinkers, writers, artists don't feel comfortable at all. Perhaps >>>>>> it >>>>>> is not America but Singapore that is their utopia, at least in the short >>>>>> run. They want Singapore-style development. Even though they won't admit >>>>>> it, >>>>>> they are looking forward not only to Singapore-style malls but also to >>>>>> Singapore-style authoritarian prime ministers. Large numbers of the >>>>>> middle >>>>>> class are now perfectly willing to sacrifice large sections of the >>>>>> society >>>>>> for the sake of development. In most countries, spectacular development >>>>>> has >>>>>> been associated with spectacular authoritarianism. Not only Singapore, >>>>>> China >>>>>> is a very good example. The enormous diversity of India has always >>>>>> troubled >>>>>> modern Indians. They think some degree of homogenisation imposed from >>>>>> above >>>>>> is the perfect remedy for India's ills. They think they are the strict >>>>>> school teachers who can teach the rest of India how to behave when >>>>>> the government takes away land for SEZs, when it builds mega dams. >>>>>> They want to shut their eyes to what development really means. They are >>>>>> its >>>>>> beneficiaries and feel it must be protected at all costs. >>>>>> >>>>>> What is your idea of a post-secular world? >>>>>> >>>>>> Everybody predicted the demise of religion in the 19th century. Yet, >>>>>> at the beginning of the 21st century, we find religion stronger than >>>>>> ever. >>>>>> It has re-emerged from its isolation and marginalisation in a big way, >>>>>> taking advantage of the democratic process. Unless we learn the language >>>>>> of >>>>>> religion and enter the people's mind through that path, we have no way of >>>>>> truly influencing their choices. That's why one of the most creative >>>>>> persons >>>>>> of our time, Gandhi, said that people who say religion and politics have >>>>>> nothing to do with each other understand neither religion nor politics. >>>>>> Other creative persons who may or may not call themselves Gandhian follow >>>>>> that method. The Dalai Lama, Nelson Mandela, Desmond Tutu, Martin Luther >>>>>> King — they have all used religion very creatively. In India, people like >>>>>> Baba Amte and Sunder Lal Bahuguna never attacked religion; Swami Agnivesh >>>>>> has never put away his saffron robes. When you talk of saffronisation, it >>>>>> offends most Hindus. Saffron is not the colour of extremism. It is the >>>>>> colour of renunciation — sanyasis wear saffron. Extremists have hijacked >>>>>> it >>>>>> because we allowed them to; they have hijacked it even when they don't >>>>>> believe in it themselves. [VD] Savarkar was an atheist. He didn't >>>>>> believe in >>>>>> Hinduism but produced the bible of Hindutva. Hindutva is a political >>>>>> ideology while Hinduism is a form of faith. Ideologies enter when faiths >>>>>> become weak and do not have a meaning for people. Hindutva is a way of >>>>>> using >>>>>> Hindu sentiments politically to push towards the development of a Hindu >>>>>> nation state. The concept of a nation state is not Hindu. It is a >>>>>> 19th-century European concept, but Europe is moving away from it while we >>>>>> continue to cling to it. As Rabindranath Tagore once said, India trying >>>>>> to >>>>>> build a nation is like Switzerland trying to build a navy. >>>>>> >>>>>> What prompts people who were once part of the Left to turn to the BJP? >>>>>> >>>>>> Psychologically, the Leftist and the Hindutva ideologies are not far >>>>>> from each other. They offer the same kind of closure, the feeling of >>>>>> having >>>>>> reached an absolute truth by which to live. People who have faith don't >>>>>> usually have strong ideologies. But many Indians also have blind faith in >>>>>> ideologies because they feel if they don't have the support of an >>>>>> ideology, >>>>>> the meaning of life will collapse. >>>>>> >>>>>> What about young Indians?Are they clinging to ideology as a means of >>>>>> security? >>>>>> >>>>>> Like our politicians, the young are increasingly getting >>>>>> de-ideologised. They don't understand Hindutva but they have picked up >>>>>> its >>>>>> slogans as ideology. They cling to it with the passion of a lover because >>>>>> without that clinging, they feel they will not be able to call themselves >>>>>> Hindu, because otherwise they are going out and downing beef hamburgers. >>>>>> Alternatively, they are moving towards a new, generic version of Hinduism >>>>>> obtained from gurus. This flooding of the market with gurus has also come >>>>>> from this need. You could be a Malayali working in Himachal Pradesh. You >>>>>> have no access to your own village gods and goddesses, to the Malayali >>>>>> version of Hinduism with which you have lived — it doesn't even make >>>>>> sense >>>>>> to you anymore. Then you take a generic version of the faith [from the >>>>>> gurus]. Somehow it gives you solace, a feeling that you are part of the >>>>>> Hindu community. >>>>>> >>>>>> So are we losing Hinduism's diversity? >>>>>> >>>>>> Hinduism is becoming a faith in the way that Christianity in many >>>>>> parts of the West is a faith. That wasn't our concept of religion. Today, >>>>>> there are many in India willing to fight for the cause of India to the >>>>>> last >>>>>> Indian. Exactly as in Islam: they are many willing to fight for Islam >>>>>> until >>>>>> the last Muslim. They despise Muslims for not participating in the >>>>>> struggle >>>>>> and don't care how many of them die. Because they have very little >>>>>> compassion for Muslims, their compassion is reserved for the vague idea >>>>>> of >>>>>> Islam. Similarly, in India you will find a lot of people who have a vague >>>>>> idea of what India is — they have a statist, mechanical concept of India >>>>>> and >>>>>> of Hinduism, and they are willing to sacrifice a million people to >>>>>> achieve >>>>>> that end. But the Indian state is the Indian culture and that extends >>>>>> from >>>>>> South Vietnam all the way to the borders of Persia. >>>>>> >>>>>> What about Islam in India? How has it changed over the years? >>>>>> >>>>>> We are seeing an Arabisation of Islam in India. At one time, Indian >>>>>> Muslims were proud that their Islam represented the best of the world's >>>>>> traditions. But they are increasingly losing that confidence, as a direct >>>>>> product of 19th-century European scholars who claimed that West Asian >>>>>> Islam >>>>>> was the real Islam while other strands were influenced by local >>>>>> religions. >>>>>> These scholars endorsed fundamentalist Islam as the real Islam. The >>>>>> hijab, >>>>>> for example, was introduced in Indonesia by Western-educated women >>>>>> because >>>>>> they felt the Islam of their parents was not good enough. The same thing >>>>>> is >>>>>> happening in India. Muslims are virtually in uniform with skull caps and >>>>>> kurta-pyjama. >>>>>> >>>>>> What are some of the biggest challenges India is to face? >>>>>> >>>>>> How do we stop the fact that our economic and social vision is very >>>>>> close to writing off the bottom 10 percent of our society. We would be >>>>>> happy >>>>>> if they were all dead. How do we find people who will use the language of >>>>>> religion to re-enter the public imagination, someone who will re-enter >>>>>> as a >>>>>> person, articulating principles in direct continuation with his or her >>>>>> religion, without practising the dominant slogans of the pack. There are >>>>>> many, even our finance minister, who seem to believe that "development" >>>>>> and >>>>>> industrialisation are the way out of poverty, as that is the only model >>>>>> of >>>>>> social change they have learnt. America consumes 30 percent of the >>>>>> world's >>>>>> resources with only six percent of its population. But we are not six >>>>>> percent of the world's population. To become America we will have to kill >>>>>> off everybody else in the world and consume all the world's resources and >>>>>> even then we will not have the American standard of living. According to >>>>>> a >>>>>> prediction, the Ganga will die out in 28 years. Something like that >>>>>> will probably awaken the consciousness of the people. >>>>>> >>>>>> Why is the space for dissent shrinking? >>>>>> >>>>>> Their own conviction in their being right is so small. Because they >>>>>> are themselves not convinced that what they are doing is right, they >>>>>> look at >>>>>> all dissent as an attack, not only on their ideas but on them directly. >>>>>> You >>>>>> are planting the idea in their mind, making them think that they could be >>>>>> wrong — that is their fear. >>>>>> >>>>>> You've called history an overrated discipline. Why? >>>>>> >>>>>> Every community of India has its own history, not only in terms of >>>>>> jati puranas but their own mythic history: memories handed down for >>>>>> generations. There are many ways of constructing the past, history is >>>>>> only >>>>>> one of them. But with this passion for history that came to India in the >>>>>> 19th century, everything has been "historised". That, I think, has >>>>>> diminished us. Today, history is a major part of the knowledge industry, >>>>>> but >>>>>> that no longer enhances us. This search for truth about the past closes >>>>>> many >>>>>> pasts. >>>>>> From Tehelka Magazine, Vol 5, Issue 26, Dated July >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Bobby Kunhu >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Bobby Kunhu > > > --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Green Youth Movement" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/greenyouth?hl=en-GB -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
