whoops, this slipped through email cracks :(
On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 7:54 PM UTTARO, JAMES <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> I understand that GROW is specific to Global Routing Operations at the
> current time. Is the intention of the new charter to address BGP as a
> protocol when explicitly dealing with routing state for standalone or
> inter-connected ... or is the scope expanded to include BGP as it is
> currently deployed to support non-routing and hybrid use cases?
>
I think GROW is 'global routing operations' yes.
I think the charter's re-work is to update our view on bgp
scalability/operations/measurement, just what GROW has always done.
I think your point about hybrid and non-routing use-cases applies to
the global internet as well, if only because in a wide variety of
instances (CBB being a local-to-you example, i think) BGP is 1 process
on a device that has many 'views' of the routing system that the
particular device manages, if there are failures in processing BGP
updates from any of the subordinate 'views' those failures could spill
over into the whole set of 'views' as performance impacts.
Simple examples of this exist:
o Attribute 128 leakage into the global table causes wide spread
panic at the disco:
o 'overly chatty' bgp speakers 'stealin ma bucket' (resource
starvation problems due to lack of resource controls in a
shared-tenant system)
o Accidental leakages between address-families/vrfs/etc - exposure
due to complexity in the configuration/policy system
(admittedly this is a form of the first item, almost certainly)
o Additional testing requirements to cover 'unused' code paths
exposed in BGP speakers due to additional 'not global internet' (or
not other 'views') requirements
The BGP system today spans from the transport to dollar-centric parts
of the world, mistakes/problems/destruction in the BGP world have wide
ranging and very damaging impacts :( Trying to tighten up operations,
measurement, management, deployment of BGP in the world benefits both
the Global Internet and all other networks, actually.
I don't necessarily think GROW should go diving into the other
'views', but noting that the use/misuse/abuse of these other 'views'
can substantially impact the global system is certainly something
GROW has done and should keep doing when appropriate.
> BGP is used for across multiple FOUs i.e Kompella, EVPN, FlowSpec, BGP-LS
> etc... Each of these present unique operational challenges.
I 100% agree with you here, I do also think that all of these (except
in some very exceptional cases) end up having the ability to impact
the global view as well.
> Will the charter address these and other FOUs BGP is used for?
>
sorry, I'm not sure I know what 'FOU' means here (which I should have
highlighted above, oops) .... I take it to mean something like: "other
use-cases" ?
as above: I don't think GROW needs/wants to go poking in (for
instance) BGP-LS directly, but as these technologies impact the global
system GROW should keep aware and be able to offer relevant
operational guidance to the community (and to the standards body)
about how to stay safe in this uncertain world.
-chris
> Thanks,
> Jim Uttaro
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: GROW <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Christopher Morrow
> Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2020 5:17 PM
> To: Alvaro Retana <[email protected]>
> Cc: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>; [email protected]
> [email protected] <[email protected]>; Warren Kumari <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: [GROW] Proposed updates to GROW charter
>
> On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 8:54 PM Alvaro Retana <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > Job:
> >
> > Hi!
> >
> >
> > Thanks for addressing my comments!
> >
> >
> > I have just a couple more things:
> >
> > - The use of "Internet networks" doesn't sound right...perhaps "Internet-
> > connected networks"? Looking at the rest of the charter, I assume that,
>
> Job an I had a concern (I think we both shared this concern) about
> limiting the problems/solutions/monitoring/etc to
> 'internet-connected'.
> I think that 'bgp' (or external routing protocols) are used on both
> 'internet connected' and 'all the other' IP networks, right?
> should the benefits GROW pushes for be limited to 'internet connected' ?
>
> (I agree the current wording could use some help, how do we capture
> the idea that any IP network that ends up using a bgp can benefit?)
>
> > for example, the operations of BGP in a non-Internet-connected network (a
> > data center, for example) is not within the scope of grow. Is that the
> > intent, or am I reading too much into it?
>
> i think we were hoping to cover both, actually. our wording choice
> wasn't great :)
>
> > - [nit] The last goal talks about "preventing malpractice in the global
> > routing system". I'm not sure documentation can stop someone from doing
> > the wrong thing -- especially if they want to. Maybe this goal can be
> > worded positively: Document best practices and recommendations to assist
> > in the proper operation of the global routing system.
>
> sounds ok to me :)
>
> > Thanks!
> >
> > Alvaro.
> >
> >
> >
> > On July 29, 2020 at 1:07:06 PM, Job Snijders
> > ([email protected](mailto:[email protected])) wrote:
> >
> > > Dear all,
> > >
> > > Below is a third revision of the charter proposal, we attempted to
> > > incorporate all the feedback received so far, specifically Alvaro's.
> > >
> > > Please let us know your feedback!
> > >
> > > Kind regards,
> > >
> > > Job & Chris
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Charter for Working Group
> > > ==========================
> > >
> > > The purpose of GROW is to consider the operational problems associated
> > > with the Internet Protocol (IP) global routing systems, including but
> > > not limited to default-free zone routing table growth, effects of the
> > > interactions between interior and exterior routing protocols, the effect
> > > of address allocation policies, or practices on the global routing
> > > system. Where appropriate, GROW documents the operational aspects of
> > > measurement, monitoring, policy, routing system security, VPN
> > > infrastructures, or safe default behavior of IP routing protocol
> > > implementations and deployments.
> > >
> > > GROW will also advise various working groups, specifically IDR and
> > > SIDROPS, with respect to whether it is addressing the relevant
> > > operational and routing security requirements of Internet networks,
> > > and where appropriate, suggest course corrections. Finally, operational
> > > requirements developed in GROW can also be used by any working group
> > > chartered with standardizing a next generation inter-domain routing
> > > protocol.
> > >
> > > GOALS
> > > -----
> > >
> > > * Provide stewardship and maintenance for the BGP Monitoring Protocol
> > > (BMP)
> > > * Provide stewardship and maintenance for the Multi-Threaded Routing
> > > Toolkit (MRT) Routing Information Export Format
> > > * Document Best Current Practises for operations of the Internet global
> > > routing system.
> > > * Analyze aspects for supporting new applications, including extending
> > > existing routing protocols or creating new ones. This includes risk,
> > > interference, and application fit.
> > > * Document the operational aspects of securing the Internet routing
> > > system, and provide recommendations to other WGs.
> > > * Provide documentation to assist in preventing malpractice in the
> > > global routing system.
> > >
> > > Milestones
> > > ----------
> > >
> > > 2020 - "Support for Local RIB in BGP Monitoring Protocol (BMP)" to IESG
> > > 2020 - "BMP Peer Up Message Namespace" to IESG
> > > 2020 - "Revision to Registration Procedures for Multiple BMP Registries"
> > > to IESG.
> > > 2021 - "Document negative consequences of de-aggregating received routes
> > > for traffic engineering purposes" - to IESG
> > > 2021 - "TLV support for BMP Route Monitoring and Peer Down Messages" to
> > > IESG.
> > > 2021 - "A BCP on using IRR and RPKI data to improve filtering of BGP
> > > peering sessions" to IESG or via "Evolving Documents"
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
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> > > [email protected]
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