Hi All, I personally am very pleased with my Braille Sense Classic and Braille Sense Plus. They do what I need them to do for me. They do not require me to know a lot of things I would have to know if I used a Laptop or Netboook. I for one would stop using email or the Internet if this was not available to me. I have also used the Braille Note. I can say that I have been very pleased with Gw Micro's Tech Support and answers on this list. I would rather have a-pany do a good job with updates and have them less often. If you are not pleased with your Braille Sense I suggest you check into the other products out there. I am not saying it is perfect, I am saying that it is the best product on the Market in my opinion. I did not like Keysoft and am glad for my Bs and BS PLUS. Thanks Gw Micro and Hims.
Colleen Roth ----- Original Message ----- From: "Edwards, Paul" <[email protected]> To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> Date: 2010/05/14 19:32:06 Subject: RE: [GWN] FRUSTRATIONS ABOUT THE Sense products > > > I think it is important to acquire some perspective on this issue. I do not > currently own a gps system and will therefore disqualify myself from that > issue as uninformed. I have had and used a gps system with braille note > products but that was several years ago also. > > I think there is room for blind people to be dissatisfied with product > updating. However, I think that the dissatisfaction ought to apply across > the board. I think it is worth noting that the sense products have yet to > charge for upgrades. The Humanware folks certainly do charge for the braille > note family. I was disheartened to see that the introduction of the Apex did > not seem to include many changes to the programs that were run. Sure, there > is more memory and built-in wireless and blue tooth. But I think a lot of us > thought that this major upgrade and its attendant price tag would have also > included more changes. > > It is my belief that product developers have an obligation to update > frequently if that is necessary to maintain functionality and > competitiveness. I think there are some major issues in this area that the > sense products have allowed themselves to fall behind the cure on. > Shakespeare said that comparisons are odious and I have sympathy with that > concept. Those who make and sell the Sense note takers have made a choice as > to whether they were going to charge for upgrades. Regardless of the > economics of that decision, I think there is no excuse for a failure, by now, > to support word 2007 files. I also do believe that the internet has changed > enough over the past few years and the Sense products and the humanware note > takers and perhaps even the Freedom Scientific not taker have all failed > either to come up with solutions that make the web more accessible or to say > up front that such access has serious limitations. > > I absolutely concur with whoever said that mainstream products must be > updated to be saleable and so they are changed whenever there is a need. I > do not think that blindness products as a group perceive that they have the > same level of obligation to those who have chosen their products. I think > that it is a generalized disdain for blind owners expressed through a failure > to change enough with the times that we need to deplore. > > I find myself wondering also if we are operating during a time of transition > where the relatively inexpensive net book and lap top are making inroads into > the viability of note takers. Could we be approaching a threshold below > which change will not happen. Some of us lived through the decline and fall > of the braille lite millennium and know only too well that, after a very > short life, Freedom Scientific stopped upgrading the device. I own a > millennium, a braille plus, and a voice sense and have owned braille notes as > well. I think what frustrates all of us who use these devices is the fact > that, if truth be told, none of these devices is as transparent to the > internet or to email as computers are. Perhaps this is the price we have to > pay for a braille display or a braille keyboard Perhaps, however, we have > reached the point where we need to say that, given the fact that we could buy > ten net books for every braille sense we might consider buying, we, or > someone, is not getting enough return on the investment. In general, I hold > the following truths to be self-evident and relevant. > We have a right not to be disadvantaged by products that we have paid a high > premium for and such products need to be updated regularly, whether we are > charged for those upgrades or not. Blind owners of technology ought to have > the same right to expect that their products can be used where they are > designed to be used as do people without disabilities who purchase products > that do the same tasks. Perhaps most important of all is my belief that > vendors have an obligation to discuss the limitations of their products. > Given the quantity of flash and java-enabled stuff on the net, for instance, > I think that folks ought to know about the limitations of the note takers in > terms of accessing sites that make widespread use of either of these > technologies. > > It does not matter to me who paid for the products we own. I paid for all of > mine myself with no support from my employer or the vr system. We are the > end users of the technology and must be able to rely on it to do what we > bought it to do. Somebody paid a lot of money for the access tech products > we have. Is it reasonable that we are on a declining spiral of usability as > the net changes and our products do not? I understand and, to some degree, > accept the argument about a small market. However, we pay a high price for > these products which should take care of the disincentive to update. In some > cases, we also pay for maintenance agreements for which we sometimes get very > little in return. I am not sure we are yet at the stage of "broadcast News" > but I think that there is less and less being done for these devices so they > are all, to a greater or lesser extent, causing us to be further and further > behind our non-disabled peers. > > I would argue that GW Micro tries hard to apply the principles I am espousing > with their screen reader. Are we at the stage where not taker for the blind > manufacturers are more concerned about keeping up with the competition than > they are in making sure their products do what they are supposed to do? Is > that competition asking that each product do a bunch of things because other > products do a bunch of things? Are we at the stage where we as consumers and > access technology producers must work to develop a new paradigm to measure > both the viability of products and what consumers really need and want? > > Paul > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bryan Duarte [mailto:[email protected]] > Sent: Friday, May 14, 2010 2:04 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: [GWN] FRUSTRATIONS ABOUT THE Sense products > > Raul, > I live in Phoenix Arizona. there are several things I have attempted to > search for using my sense nav and the results returned to me were either, > incorrect, could not be found, or gave directions that were inaccurate. now > if we are only talking about streets, cities, and states over all, the Sense > Nav is great. the streets in phoenix never change. what changes is the > businesses, locations, and information. staying up to date with all this > information when it is ever changing would be impossible if maps were > updated every year, but to let it go out three plus years would be virtually > ridiculous to expect any kind of accurate information. let me explain... I > searched for a restaurant that I knew was on a particular corner just did > not know the phone number. I searched using the search by name, then > category, then by setting my virtual position to that corner and doing a > look around. still no results were returned for the restaurant. after I > thought about it the POI I was looking for was only there for about two > years or so. as I looked for other businesses such as a local gym, gas > station, and restaurant about half of the searches were not easily found, > were not found, or the information given was not correct. the only reason I > do not use the sense nav currently is because at this point the maps on the > sense nav are to far behind for Phoenix and its metro areas ever changing > and growing communities. I do not expect for a GPS SYSTEM FOR SIGHTED OR > blind to be 100 percent accurate, but what I do expect is for a product such > as a GPS SYSTEM TO STAY AS CURRENT AS POSSIBLE. Sendero is a very big name > in GPS FOR THE BLIND, THEY HAVE A GREAT SYSTEM, AND ALWAYS HAVE UP TO DATE > maps for their devices. my only question is what has taken so long for the > Sense nav? when the voice sense and the Braille sense came out the talk was > that these products were top of the line, were small, powerful, and had lots > of promises in store for the future. well three years later, there are > little to no major upgrades on OS, THE Daisy player still has no support for > RFB AND D, NLS AUDIO BOOKS, AND STILL NO UPDATES FOR PROGRAMS RUNNING ON THE > voice sense. the Braille note is evolving every year and changing with the > times while the sense products seem to be three years back. I guess it is > just frustrating because I bought a voice sense because the size, power, and > possibilities. three years later I am starting to feel let down, and that > maybe I made the wrong decision. > Raul I know you are very passionate about the products you have and I know > you always try to help everyone with them, my only problem is that all of > the sense users bought a device that they hoped was going to shine when they > bought it and continue to shine through the years to come. we are not so > bright these days. please take these things I say as a frustrated customer > who would like to voice their opinion somewhere that it might be heard and > taken into consideration. this is in no way a direct slander towards GW > Micro, Sendero, or Hims. > > Bryan Duarte Blind Ambitions > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Raul A. Gallegos [mailto:[email protected]] > Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2010 8:53 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: [GWN] FRUSTRATIONS ABOUT THE Sense products > > Bryan, I'm curious, where you live, have the maps changed that much from > 2007 to 2010 that it makes your current SenseNav unusable like you say? > Don't get me wrong, I'm not disputing what you say and I'm not trying to > come off like what you say isn't important. However in testing the 2010 > maps and comparing them to the various cities I've traveled to or > checked out in virtual mode, not much has changed other than some > updated names for major roads. What has changed a lot is the POI DATA. > > Regarding the SyncBraille, if it's out of warranty, with any hardware > product, a standard $45 analysis charge is always charged. So we are not > singling you out here with it. Regarding the firmware, I have personally > been pushing for new updates for a long time. Whether you believe me or > not is up to you, but I think that anyone who knows me will believe that > I feel strongly that the Sense notetakers are very good and they need to > stay up-to-date. If I had the rights and resources, I would have updated > them myself. > > Many thanks. > > On 5/13/2010 11:05 AM, Bryan Duarte wrote: > > I am with you on this issue sir. I bought a voice sense, sync Braille, > > and the sense nave right when they were released. now I have had a voice > > sense with no promised up grades, a sync Braille that no longer works > > and to get it fixed they want to charge me 45 dollars a half hour to > > diagnose the problem then parts and labor is separate, and a sense nav > > that has maps from who knows how long ago with no information on when > > and how much a new upgrade will cost. don't get me wrong I love my voice > > sense and the sync Braille when it worked was great. the sense nav was > > awesome when the map was accurate but now that times have moved on and > > the technology has not things are looking down on the distributors and > > manufacturers. to me making new products when the old products you > > currently have are not being maintained is a little backwards I think. I > > use to use my voice sense a lot more when it was an all in one device > > that was up to date on all systems. now that I have a firm ware that > > could not even pretend to bat an eye at other note takers and a sense > > nav that was awesome three years ago when it was somewhat accurate as to > > what was around me, but now I have over 8 thousand dollars invested into > > a refreshable Braille display that acts as a Braille paper weight, and a > > GPS RECEIVER THAT TAKES UP SPACE IN MY TRAVEL BACK PACK JUST WAITING TO > > come out and play some day in the future. > > > > > > > > Bryan Duarte Blind Ambitions > > > > > > > > ininF:* erik burggraaf [mailto:[email protected]] > > ininSent:* Thursday, May 13, 2010 6:36 AM > > ininTo:* [email protected] > > ininSubject:* Re: [GWN] Tip1 for the new Sense notetaker firmware > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, it's the licensing, not the software that is at issue. > > > > What I'm reading is that braille note and mobile geo can physically > > share map data on properly licensed and compatible devices, but > > braille sense can't, which is a severe limitation. > > > > Don't forget that all these devices are built on the same > > development kit, no matter what brand name you put on it. That > > doesn't make them all equal, but it at least holds out the option to > > have them compatible. An option which, based on what people are > > saying here, braille note and mobile geo offer, but sensenav does n.. > > > > Then we have the issue of the licensing for current maps. For > > example, I've just found out that 2010 maps are only licensed to > > mobile geo 2. That of course is so that I and others like me will > > have to by mspbled and mgeo2 to get a current map, which we have the > > option to do. But if the 2010 map were licensed to sensenav, then > > one way or the other sensenav could use it. Taking care of this > > licensing shouldn't require a firmware upgrade, but if it did, then > > it could be done by a patch without requiring an entire firmware, > > since they did that very thing for the braille note. If a fee had > > to be charged for upgrading maps, well, so be it. Everyone has a > > right to make money at what they do. Users who aren't greatly > > effected by using old map data can buy a case of beer on the > > weekend, where-z hard core travellers who need consistent accuracy > > could go without for a weekend or two and get the upgrade. In fact, > > I'm reasonably sure that any one who forked out 6 grand for a bsp, > > and $1600 for sensenav are not going to quibble at a $60-$80 upgrade > > fee for the map data for their high priced kit. Even sighted gps > > users incur that cost, although most commercial gps are farely > > disposable and so the cost is usually built into a whole new unit > > and they don't realize they're paying for it. > > > > This doesn't seem like rocket science to me. Old map, increasingly > > inaccurate, potential time, money and safety concern. Answer, give > > the customer an option to pay for a new map when an update becomes > > available. Then if you want to trundle around unfamiliar areas with > > a three year old map on your $8000 gps, well you go on and giver, > > but the rest of us can be getting on with the best possible > > information, especially when you're like me and you need it for work > > or school. > > > > best, > > > > Erik Burggraaf > > Join me Wednesday, May 26th at CNIB Tech Aids fair in Toronto. I'll > > be at the assistive computing booth from 2 to 4 in the afternoon and > > circulating for the rest of the day. > > http://www.erik-burggraaf.com > > 888-255-5194 > > > > On 2010-05-12, at 5:18 AM, Keith Bucher wrote: > > > > > > Erik, > > > > > > > > Sense Nav is a HIMS OR Gw Micro product not a Sendero product. > > > > Sendero licenses it to GW Micro and HIMS. If you use Sense Nav, > > > > as of right now, you are stuck with the 2007 maps. The later maps > > > > are just for the Braillenote products from Humanware. > > > > > > > > > > > > Keith > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you wish to unsubscribe from this list, visit: > > > > > > > > http://www.gwmicro.com/listserv > > > > > > If you wish to unsubscribe from this list, visit: > > > > http://www.gwmicro.com/listserv > > > -- > Raul A. Gallegos > GW Micro Technical Support And Product Specialist > Voice 260-489-3671, Fax 260-489-2608 > Web http://www.gwmicro.com > > If you wish to unsubscribe from this list, visit: > > http://www.gwmicro.com/listserv > > > If you wish to unsubscribe from this list, visit: > > http://www.gwmicro.com/listserv > > > If you wish to unsubscribe from this list, visit: > > http://www.gwmicro.com/listserv If you wish to unsubscribe from this list, visit: http://www.gwmicro.com/listserv
