I agree with most of what was said, especially that companies should
be a lot more vocal about just what their products cannot do. When
Humanware says the Braillenote can access wireless email, it is worth
noting that it is a lot slower than even a similarly powered print
PDA, that some network encryption is not supported, that, especially
on the mPower, the email database tends to corrupt itself and you can
lose all your email (it happened to me six times, and I now rely on
GMail)... When GWM says their wordprocessor allows you to edit
documents, they should come out and say that Word 2007 and later is
not supported (I realize this will be fixed in the next version, but
you get my point). These companies should make it clear that flash is
not supported, and likely never will be, and should explain just what
that means for the end user. I realize no one wants to read about what
a product cannot do, but I think it is all too common to find
literature about a product explaining all of its wonderful features
without mentioning, even in small print, the drawbacks; those
drawbacks could very well be the deciding factor as to whether a user
buys a product or not, and, at these prices, the user should know
everything they can without having to try to locate a user group and
ask, "So I read all th... but what is the company not telling me?"
Someone said the bn has updated with the times. I have to very
strongly disagree. It is true that the Apex came out recently, while
the BSP is the latest notetaker (not counting the forthcoming VSQGGF
GWM. However, the BSP and Apex are well matched in features. Except
for the price and physical size, they are very similar - it just took
hw longer to catch up. The Sense family still has MSN support (much
more used than GoogleTalk or Jabber) as well as having multi-tasking,
something HW has made no mention of.
On 5/14/10, Colleen Roth <[email protected]> wrote:
> Hi All,
> I personally am very pleased with my Braille Sense Classic and
Braille > Sense
> Plus.
> They do what I need them to do for me.
> They do not require me to know a lot of things I would have to know
if > I
> used a Laptop or Netboook.
> I for one would stop using email or the Internet if this was not >
available
> to me.
> I have also used the Braille Note.
> I can say that I have been very pleased with Gw Micro's Tech
Support > and
> answers on this list.
> I would rather have a-pany do a good job with updates and have them
> less
> often.
> If you are not pleased with your Braille Sense I suggest you check
into > the
> other products out there.
> I am not saying it is perfect, I am saying that it is the best
product > on
> the Market in my opinion.
> I did not like Keysoft and am glad for my Bs and BS PLUS.
> Thanks Gw Micro and Hims.
>
> Colleen Roth
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Edwards, Paul" <[email protected]>
> To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
> Date: 2010/05/14 19:32:06
> Subject: RE: [GWN] FRUSTRATIONS ABOUT THE Sense products
>
>ar
>ar
>ar I think it is important to acquire some perspective on this
issue. I >do
>ar not currently own a gps system and will therefore disqualify
myself >from
>ar that issue as uninformed. I have had and used a gps system with
>braille
>ar note products but that was several years ago also.
>ar
>ar I think there is room for blind people to be dissatisfied with
>product
>ar updating. However, I think that the dissatisfaction ought to
apply >across
>ar the board. I think it is worth noting that the sense products
have >yet to
>ar charge for upgrades. The Humanware folks certainly do charge for
>the
>ar braille note family. I was disheartened to see that the
introduction >of
>ar the Apex did not seem to include many changes to the programs
that >were
>ar run. Sure, there is more memory and built-in wireless and blue
>tooth.
>ar But I think a lot of us thought that this major upgrade and its
>attendant
>ar price tag would have also included more changes.
>ar
>ar It is my belief that product developers have an obligation to
>update
>ar frequently if that is necessary to maintain functionality and
>ar competitiveness. I think there are some major issues in this
area >that
>ar the sense products have allowed themselves to fall behind the
cure >on.
>ar Shakespeare said that comparisons are odious and I have sympathy
>with
>ar that concept. Those who make and sell the Sense note takers have
>made a
>ar choice as to whether they were going to charge for upgrades.
>Regardless
>ar of the economics of that decision, I think there is no excuse for a
>ar failure, by now, to support word 2007 files. I also do believe
that >the
>ar internet has changed enough over the past few years and the Sense
>products
>ar and the humanware note takers and perhaps even the Freedom
Scientific >not
>ar taker have all failed either to come up with solutions that make
the >web
>ar more accessible or to say up front that such access has serious
>ar limitations.
>ar
>ar I absolutely concur with whoever said that mainstream products
must >be
>ar updated to be saleable and so they are changed whenever there is
a >need.
>ar I do not think that blindness products as a group perceive that
they >have
>ar the same level of obligation to those who have chosen their
products. >I
>ar think that it is a generalized disdain for blind owners expressed
>through
>ar a failure to change enough with the times that we need to deplore.
>ar
>ar I find myself wondering also if we are operating during a time of
>ar transition where the relatively inexpensive net book and lap top
>are
>ar making inroads into the viability of note takers. Could we be
>approaching
>ar a threshold below which change will not happen. Some of us lived
>through
>ar the decline and fall of the braille lite millennium and know only
too >well
>ar that, after a very short life, Freedom Scientific stopped
upgrading >the
>ar device. I own a millennium, a braille plus, and a voice sense
and >have
>ar owned braille notes as well. I think what frustrates all of us
who >use
>ar these devices is the fact that, if truth be told, none of these
>devices is
>ar as transparent to the internet or to email as computers are.
Perhaps >this
>ar is the price we have to pay for a braille display or a braille
>keyboard
>ar Perhaps, however, we have reached the point where we need to say
>that,
>ar given the fact that we could buy ten net books for every braille
>sense we
>ar might consider buying, we, or someone, is not getting enough
return >on the
>ar investment. In general, I hold the following truths to be
>self-evident
>ar and relevant.
>ar We have a right not to be disadvantaged by products that we have
paid >a
>ar high premium for and such products need to be updated regularly,
>whether
>ar we are charged for those upgrades or not. Blind owners of
technology
>ar ought to have the same right to expect that their products can be
>used
>ar where they are designed to be used as do people without
disabilities >who
>ar purchase products that do the same tasks. Perhaps most important
of >all
>ar is my belief that vendors have an obligation to discuss the
>limitations of
>ar their products. Given the quantity of flash and java-enabled
stuff >on the
>ar net, for instance, I think that folks ought to know about the
>limitations
>ar of the note takers in terms of accessing sites that make
widespread >use of
>ar either of these technologies.
>ar
>ar It does not matter to me who paid for the products we own. I
paid >for all
>ar of mine myself with no support from my employer or the vr
system. We >are
>ar the end users of the technology and must be able to rely on it to
do >what
>ar we bought it to do. Somebody paid a lot of money for the access
tech
>ar products we have. Is it reasonable that we are on a declining
spiral >of
>ar usability as the net changes and our products do not? I
understand >and,
>ar to some degree, accept the argument about a small market.
However, >we pay
>ar a high price for these products which should take care of the
>disincentive
>ar to update. In some cases, we also pay for maintenance agreements
for
>ar which we sometimes get very little in return. I am not sure we
are >yet at
>ar the stage of "broadcast News" but I think that there is less and
less
>ar being done for these devices so they are all, to a greater or
>lesser
>ar extent, causing us to be further and further behind our
non-disabled
>ar peers.
>ar
>ar I would argue that GW Micro tries hard to apply the principles I am
>ar espousing with their screen reader. Are we at the stage where not
>taker
>ar for the blind manufacturers are more concerned about keeping up
with >the
>ar competition than they are in making sure their products do what
they >are
>ar supposed to do? Is that competition asking that each product do a
>bunch of
>ar things because other products do a bunch of things? Are we at the
>stage
>ar where we as consumers and access technology producers must work
to >develop
>ar a new paradigm to measure both the viability of products and what
>ar consumers really need and want?
>ar
>ar Paul
>ar
>ar -----Original Message-----
>ar From: Bryan Duarte [mailto:[email protected]]
>ar Sent: Friday, May 14, 2010 2:04 PM
>ar To: [email protected]
>ar Subject: RE: [GWN] FRUSTRATIONS ABOUT THE Sense products
>ar
>ar Raul,
>ar I live in Phoenix Arizona. there are several things I have
attempted >to
>ar search for using my sense nav and the results returned to me were
>either,
>ar incorrect, could not be found, or gave directions that were
>inaccurate.
>ar now
>ar if we are only talking about streets, cities, and states over
all, >the
>ar Sense
>ar Nav is great. the streets in phoenix never change. what changes
is >the
>ar businesses, locations, and information. staying up to date with
all >this
>ar information when it is ever changing would be impossible if maps
were
>ar updated every year, but to let it go out three plus years would be
>ar virtually
>ar ridiculous to expect any kind of accurate information. let me
>explain... I
>ar searched for a restaurant that I knew was on a particular corner
just >did
>ar not know the phone number. I searched using the search by name,
>then
>ar category, then by setting my virtual position to that corner and
>doing a
>ar look around. still no results were returned for the restaurant.
after >I
>ar thought about it the POI I was looking for was only there for
about >two
>ar years or so. as I looked for other businesses such as a local
gym, >gas
>ar station, and restaurant about half of the searches were not
easily >found,
>ar were not found, or the information given was not correct. the
only >reason
>ar I
>ar do not use the sense nav currently is because at this point the
maps >on
>ar the
>ar sense nav are to far behind for Phoenix and its metro areas ever
>changing
>ar and growing communities. I do not expect for a GPS SYSTEM FOR
SIGHTED >OR
>ar blind to be 100 percent accurate, but what I do expect is for a
>product
>ar such
>ar as a GPS SYSTEM TO STAY AS CURRENT AS POSSIBLE. Sendero is a very
big >name
>ar in GPS FOR THE BLIND, THEY HAVE A GREAT SYSTEM, AND ALWAYS HAVE
UP TO >DATE
>ar maps for their devices. my only question is what has taken so
long >for the
>ar Sense nav? when the voice sense and the Braille sense came out
the >talk
>ar was
>ar that these products were top of the line, were small, powerful,
and >had
>ar lots
>ar of promises in store for the future. well three years later,
there >are
>ar little to no major upgrades on OS, THE Daisy player still has no
>support
>ar for
>ar RFB AND D, NLS AUDIO BOOKS, AND STILL NO UPDATES FOR PROGRAMS
RUNNING >ON
>ar THE
>ar voice sense. the Braille note is evolving every year and changing
>with the
>ar times while the sense products seem to be three years back. I
guess >it is
>ar just frustrating because I bought a voice sense because the size,
>power,
>ar and
>ar possibilities. three years later I am starting to feel let down,
and >that
>ar maybe I made the wrong decision.
>ar Raul I know you are very passionate about the products you have
and I >know
>ar you always try to help everyone with them, my only problem is
that >all of
>ar the sense users bought a device that they hoped was going to
shine >when
>ar they
>ar bought it and continue to shine through the years to come. we are
not >so
>ar bright these days. please take these things I say as a frustrated
>customer
>ar who would like to voice their opinion somewhere that it might be
>heard and
>ar taken into consideration. this is in no way a direct slander
towards >GW
>ar Micro, Sendero, or Hims.
>ar
>ar Bryan Duarte Blind Ambitions
>ar
>ar
>ar -----Original Message-----
>ar From: Raul A. Gallegos [mailto:[email protected]]
>ar Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2010 8:53 PM
>ar To: [email protected]
>ar Subject: [GWN] FRUSTRATIONS ABOUT THE Sense products
>ar
>ar Bryan, I'm curious, where you live, have the maps changed that
much >from
>ar 2007 to 2010 that it makes your current SenseNav unusable like
you >say?
>ar Don't get me wrong, I'm not disputing what you say and I'm not
trying >to
>ar come off like what you say isn't important. However in testing
the >2010
>ar maps and comparing them to the various cities I've traveled to or
>ar checked out in virtual mode, not much has changed other than some
>ar updated names for major roads. What has changed a lot is the POI
>DATA.
>ar
>ar Regarding the SyncBraille, if it's out of warranty, with any
hardware
>ar product, a standard $45 analysis charge is always charged. So we
are >not
>ar singling you out here with it. Regarding the firmware, I have
>personally
>ar been pushing for new updates for a long time. Whether you believe
me >or
>ar not is up to you, but I think that anyone who knows me will
believe >that
>ar I feel strongly that the Sense notetakers are very good and they
need >to
>ar stay up-to-date. If I had the rights and resources, I would have
>updated
>ar them myself.
>ar
>ar Many thanks.
>ar
>ar On 5/13/2010 11:05 AM, Bryan Duarte wrote:
>ar > I am with you on this issue sir. I bought a voice sense, sync
>Braille,
>ar > and the sense nave right when they were released. now I have
had a >voice
>ar > sense with no promised up grades, a sync Braille that no longer
>works
>ar > and to get it fixed they want to charge me 45 dollars a half
hour >to
>ar > diagnose the problem then parts and labor is separate, and a
sense >nav
>ar > that has maps from who knows how long ago with no information
on >when
>ar > and how much a new upgrade will cost. don't get me wrong I love
my >voice
>ar > sense and the sync Braille when it worked was great. the sense
nav >was
>ar > awesome when the map was accurate but now that times have moved
on >and
>ar > the technology has not things are looking down on the
distributors >and
>ar > manufacturers. to me making new products when the old products
>you
>ar > currently have are not being maintained is a little backwards I
>think. I
>ar > use to use my voice sense a lot more when it was an all in one
>device
>ar > that was up to date on all systems. now that I have a firm ware
>that
>ar > could not even pretend to bat an eye at other note takers and a
>sense
>ar > nav that was awesome three years ago when it was somewhat
accurate >as to
>ar > what was around me, but now I have over 8 thousand dollars
invested >into
>ar > a refreshable Braille display that acts as a Braille paper
weight, >and a
>ar > GPS RECEIVER THAT TAKES UP SPACE IN MY TRAVEL BACK PACK JUST
>WAITING TO
>ar > come out and play some day in the future.
>ar >
>ar >
>ar >
>ar > Bryan Duarte Blind Ambitions
>ar >
>ar >
>ar >
>ar > ininF:* erik burggraaf [mailto:[email protected]]
>ar > ininSent:* Thursday, May 13, 2010 6:36 AM
>ar > ininTo:* [email protected]
>ar > ininSubject:* Re: [GWN] Tip1 for the new Sense notetaker firmware
>ar >
>ar >
>ar >
>ar >
>ar >
>ar > Again, it's the licensing, not the software that is at issue.
>ar >
>ar > What I'm reading is that braille note and mobile geo can
>physically
>ar > share map data on properly licensed and compatible devices,
but
>ar > braille sense can't, which is a severe limitation.
>ar >
>ar > Don't forget that all these devices are built on the same
>ar > development kit, no matter what brand name you put on it.
That
>ar > doesn't make them all equal, but it at least holds out the
>option to
>ar > have them compatible. An option which, based on what
people >are
>ar > saying here, braille note and mobile geo offer, but
sensenav >does
>ar > n..
>ar >
>ar > Then we have the issue of the licensing for current maps.
>For
>ar > example, I've just found out that 2010 maps are only
licensed >to
>ar > mobile geo 2. That of course is so that I and others like
me >will
>ar > have to by mspbled and mgeo2 to get a current map, which we
>have the
>ar > option to do. But if the 2010 map were licensed to
sensenav, >then
>ar > one way or the other sensenav could use it. Taking care of
>this
>ar > licensing shouldn't require a firmware upgrade, but if it
did, >then
>ar > it could be done by a patch without requiring an entire
>firmware,
>ar > since they did that very thing for the braille note. If a
fee >had
>ar > to be charged for upgrading maps, well, so be it. Everyone
has >a
>ar > right to make money at what they do. Users who aren't
>greatly
>ar > effected by using old map data can buy a case of beer on the
>ar > weekend, where-z hard core travellers who need consistent
>accuracy
>ar > could go without for a weekend or two and get the upgrade.
In >fact,
>ar > I'm reasonably sure that any one who forked out 6 grand for
a >bsp,
>ar > and $1600 for sensenav are not going to quibble at a
$60-$80 >upgrade
>ar > fee for the map data for their high priced kit. Even
sighted >gps
>ar > users incur that cost, although most commercial gps are
>farely
>ar > disposable and so the cost is usually built into a whole
new >unit
>ar > and they don't realize they're paying for it.
>ar >
>ar > This doesn't seem like rocket science to me. Old map,
>increasingly
>ar > inaccurate, potential time, money and safety concern.
Answer, >give
>ar > the customer an option to pay for a new map when an update
>becomes
>ar > available. Then if you want to trundle around unfamiliar
areas >with
>ar > a three year old map on your $8000 gps, well you go on and
>giver,
>ar > but the rest of us can be getting on with the best possible
>ar > information, especially when you're like me and you need it
for >work
>ar > or school.
>ar >
>ar > best,
>ar >
>ar > Erik Burggraaf
>ar > Join me Wednesday, May 26th at CNIB Tech Aids fair in
Toronto. >I'll
>ar > be at the assistive computing booth from 2 to 4 in the
>afternoon and
>ar > circulating for the rest of the day.
>ar > http://www.erik-burggraaf.com
>ar > 888-255-5194
>ar >
>ar > On 2010-05-12, at 5:18 AM, Keith Bucher wrote:
>ar >
>ar >
>ar > Erik,
>ar >
>ar >
>ar >
>ar > Sense Nav is a HIMS OR Gw Micro product not a Sendero
>product.
>ar >
>ar > Sendero licenses it to GW Micro and HIMS. If you use
>Sense
>ar > Nav,
>ar >
>ar > as of right now, you are stuck with the 2007 maps. The
>later
>ar > maps
>ar >
>ar > are just for the Braillenote products from Humanware.
>ar >
>ar >
>ar >
>ar >
>ar >
>ar > Keith
>ar >
>ar >
>ar >
>ar >
>ar >
>ar >
>ar >
>ar >
>ar >
>ar >
>ar >
>ar > If you wish to unsubscribe from this list, visit:
>ar >
>ar >
>ar >
>ar > http://www.gwmicro.com/listserv
>ar >
>ar >
>ar > If you wish to unsubscribe from this list, visit:
>ar >
>ar > http://www.gwmicro.com/listserv
>ar
>ar
>ar --
>ar Raul A. Gallegos
>ar GW Micro Technical Support And Product Specialist
>ar Voice 260-489-3671, Fax 260-489-2608
>ar Web http://www.gwmicro.com
>ar
>ar If you wish to unsubscribe from this list, visit:
>ar
>ar http://www.gwmicro.com/listserv
>ar
>ar
>ar If you wish to unsubscribe from this list, visit:
>ar
>ar http://www.gwmicro.com/listserv
>ar
>ar
>ar If you wish to unsubscribe from this list, visit:
>ar
>ar http://www.gwmicro.com/listserv
>
> If you wish to unsubscribe from this list, visit:
>
> http://www.gwmicro.com/listserv
>
>
--
Have a great day,
Alex (msg sent from GMail website)
[email protected]; http://www.facebook.com/mehgcap
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