yes Mike, when I read what you are saying here about note takers and mobile devices alike it seems to be more along the lines of one product vs. another. in actuality the problem is not in the cost, size, or components we choose to have. the problem is that we are paying the price for the device, expecting to have an all in one device to use at work, school, and in everyday life with smooth and easy portability. whether or not my voice sense ever supports JAVA perfectly, can run Flash seamlessly or can stream live TV without ever dropping in bit rate or skipping is not what I am after. more than any of this I am hoping for a device that will change with the times, never seas to evolve, and will be sure to take into consideration what needs are still un-met and have the focus in mind to deliver these needs in one upgrade or another. if we think about it that is exactly what the sighted world is doing with the cell phone, smart phone, windows mobile phone, Iphone, Iphone 3G, Iphone 3GS, and now the Ipad and Net books. evolution is taking place based on needs and wants needed to be met. so why has this not taken place in this way for blind people? the reason is "Supply and Demand." if a company takes the time to developed such a product with some capabilities they feel that those newly accessible features should suffice since they were never really that good to begin with. well the other part of this is that Dell, HP, Toshiba, and Mac are not fighting to be the best for the blind community. right now there are Human ware, GW Micro, and Freedom Scientific trying to compete on different levels. Jaws and Window Eyes are competing, Braille Note and sense products, and pretty much everything else is just left to withstand time. see the problem here? not that these companies are not trying to or delivering at least quality products but more than that no one has stepped up to push the envelope a little bit farther in this area yet. sorry I guess I just got a little carried away there. thanks Mike have a blessed day. Bryan Duarte Blind Ambitions
-----Original Message----- From: Mike Freeman [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2010 11:22 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [GWN] frustrations about the Sense products Bryan: I think you've hit the nail on the head although I'm not sure you meant to. (big smile) You write that we bought these expensive devices in the expectation that they would keep up with Net content. But there's the rub. Most of the expense (at least in the Braille Sense Plus) is in the braille display. So what we are, in effect, asking is that because we paid a lot for a device, primarily for a component *not* in other mobile devices, we should be able to expect that our devices perform like even moderately expensive devices for the sighted. It doesn't work that way in the real world. No one ever said that blindness wasn't a nuisance and one of the nuisances is that piezoelectric braille displays aren't cheap. That's economics. So in my mind, just because we paid a lot for a device -- primarily for something a sighted person wouldn't want or need -- we are not entitled to expect bells and whistles simply by virtue of the expense. Then again, you compare the BS Plus and VS with the iPhone and say that the iPhone is a mobile device "but ..." And there again is the rub. Essentially, the VS and BS Plus *also* are mobile devices but because of the expense, we are loath to admit this to ourselves and except the limitations inherent in a mobile device. Incidentally, Macs have some problems with Flash content also. Yet we do not here people excoriating Apple for not fully supporting Flash or Silverlight. Bottom line: I say the problem is more with the expectations we, the blind, bring to the product than it is with the products themselves. Does this mean that I don't think bugs should be squashed? Definitely not. I wouldn't introduce *one* new feature till *all* the reported bugs had been squashed and demonstrated to have been so for six months. But that's why I'm not working for HIM or GW Micro! (grin) Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bryan Duarte" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, May 15, 2010 8:40 PM Subject: RE: [GWN] frustrations about the Sense products > Hello Colleen, > I am very pleased to hear you are very happy with your sense product as we > are all I am sure. unfortunately there are lots of us out there who do > more > on a daily basis, use more features, and expect more from a device other > than a low functioning email program, and a web browser that will not > support web pages with high JAVA, Flash, and lots of pictures. in fact I > cannot even play a full game on my voice sense without it crashing on me > at > least three times. I am sure we all have heard that ding of death our > sense > products make when they are frozen and the only way to bring it back to > life > is the black reset button. for you the basic functionality is perfect and > that is great that GW has met your requirements for a product for your > needs. on the other hand most of us bought the product with high hopes for > now and future use. as I said before, I love my voice sense and use it > every > day. the problem is that I spent almost 7 times more for a product that > has > fallen way behind on small updates for regular bugs, and way way behind on > major updates that will keep it productive for changing times, than I did > for my Iphone that does meet these points. I understand that I am speaking > about a mobile phone and it is totally different but the point is that it > is > a mobile device that is accessible, regularly updated, supports multiple > web > types, media types, and soon will support Braille. I do not think any of > us > are directly bashing GW Micro, for their efforts, in fact I am sure we all > would jump right in and purchase another device without even thinking > twice > but some obligations on their end need to be met just to insure their > customers that they mean good business. oh and by the way I think Rawl is > an > awesome guy, who always jumps in to help us with questions, the rest of > the > GW team is just as awesome we do not mean to attack them but we do need > our > thoughts and concerns to be heard. the time is now and it has been a long > time running to this point. thanks and have a blessed day. > > Bryan Duarte Blind Ambitions > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Colleen Roth [mailto:[email protected]] > Sent: Friday, May 14, 2010 1:23 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: [GWN] frustrations about the Sense products > > Hi All, > I personally am very pleased with my Braille Sense Classic and Braille > Sense > Plus. > They do what I need them to do for me. > They do not require me to know a lot of things I would have to know if I > used a Laptop or Netboook. > I for one would stop using email or the Internet if this was not available > to me. > I have also used the Braille Note. > I can say that I have been very pleased with Gw Micro's Tech Support and > answers on this list. > I would rather have a-pany do a good job with updates and have them less > often. > If you are not pleased with your Braille Sense I suggest you check into > the > other products out there. > I am not saying it is perfect, I am saying that it is the best product on > the Market in my opinion. > I did not like Keysoft and am glad for my Bs and BS PLUS. > Thanks Gw Micro and Hims. > > Colleen Roth > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Edwards, Paul" <[email protected]> > To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > Date: 2010/05/14 19:32:06 > Subject: RE: [GWN] FRUSTRATIONS ABOUT THE Sense products > >> >> >> I think it is important to acquire some perspective on this issue. I do > not currently own a gps system and will therefore disqualify myself from > that issue as uninformed. I have had and used a gps system with braille > note products but that was several years ago also. >> >> I think there is room for blind people to be dissatisfied with product > updating. However, I think that the dissatisfaction ought to apply across > the board. I think it is worth noting that the sense products have yet to > charge for upgrades. The Humanware folks certainly do charge for the > braille > note family. I was disheartened to see that the introduction of the Apex > did not seem to include many changes to the programs that were run. Sure, > there is more memory and built-in wireless and blue tooth. But I think a > lot of us thought that this major upgrade and its attendant price tag > would > have also included more changes. >> >> It is my belief that product developers have an obligation to update > frequently if that is necessary to maintain functionality and > competitiveness. I think there are some major issues in this area that > the > sense products have allowed themselves to fall behind the cure on. > Shakespeare said that comparisons are odious and I have sympathy with > that > concept. Those who make and sell the Sense note takers have made a choice > as to whether they were going to charge for upgrades. Regardless of the > economics of that decision, I think there is no excuse for a failure, by > now, to support word 2007 files. I also do believe that the internet has > changed enough over the past few years and the Sense products and the > humanware note takers and perhaps even the Freedom Scientific not taker > have > all failed either to come up with solutions that make the web more > accessible or to say up front that such access has serious limitations. >> >> I absolutely concur with whoever said that mainstream products must be > updated to be saleable and so they are changed whenever there is a need. > I > do not think that blindness products as a group perceive that they have > the > same level of obligation to those who have chosen their products. I think > that it is a generalized disdain for blind owners expressed through a > failure to change enough with the times that we need to deplore. >> >> I find myself wondering also if we are operating during a time of > transition where the relatively inexpensive net book and lap top are > making > inroads into the viability of note takers. Could we be approaching a > threshold below which change will not happen. Some of us lived through > the > decline and fall of the braille lite millennium and know only too well > that, > after a very short life, Freedom Scientific stopped upgrading the device. > I > own a millennium, a braille plus, and a voice sense and have owned braille > notes as well. I think what frustrates all of us who use these devices is > the fact that, if truth be told, none of these devices is as transparent > to > the internet or to email as computers are. Perhaps this is the price we > have to pay for a braille display or a braille keyboard Perhaps, however, > we have reached the point where we need to say that, given the fact that > we > could buy ten net books for every braille sense we might consider buying, > we, or someone, is not getting enough return on the investment. In > general, > I hold the following truths to be self-evident and relevant. >> We have a right not to be disadvantaged by products that we have paid a > high premium for and such products need to be updated regularly, whether > we > are charged for those upgrades or not. Blind owners of technology ought > to > have the same right to expect that their products can be used where they > are > designed to be used as do people without disabilities who purchase > products > that do the same tasks. Perhaps most important of all is my belief that > vendors have an obligation to discuss the limitations of their products. > Given the quantity of flash and java-enabled stuff on the net, for > instance, > I think that folks ought to know about the limitations of the note takers > in > terms of accessing sites that make widespread use of either of these > technologies. >> >> It does not matter to me who paid for the products we own. I paid for >> all > of mine myself with no support from my employer or the vr system. We are > the end users of the technology and must be able to rely on it to do what > we > bought it to do. Somebody paid a lot of money for the access tech > products > we have. Is it reasonable that we are on a declining spiral of usability > as > the net changes and our products do not? I understand and, to some > degree, > accept the argument about a small market. However, we pay a high price > for > these products which should take care of the disincentive to update. In > some cases, we also pay for maintenance agreements for which we sometimes > get very little in return. I am not sure we are yet at the stage of > "broadcast News" but I think that there is less and less being done for > these devices so they are all, to a greater or lesser extent, causing us > to > be further and further behind our non-disabled peers. >> >> I would argue that GW Micro tries hard to apply the principles I am > espousing with their screen reader. Are we at the stage where not taker > for > the blind manufacturers are more concerned about keeping up with the > competition than they are in making sure their products do what they are > supposed to do? Is that competition asking that each product do a bunch of > things because other products do a bunch of things? Are we at the stage > where we as consumers and access technology producers must work to develop > a > new paradigm to measure both the viability of products and what consumers > really need and want? >> >> Paul >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Bryan Duarte [mailto:[email protected]] >> Sent: Friday, May 14, 2010 2:04 PM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: RE: [GWN] FRUSTRATIONS ABOUT THE Sense products >> >> Raul, >> I live in Phoenix Arizona. there are several things I have attempted to >> search for using my sense nav and the results returned to me were either, >> incorrect, could not be found, or gave directions that were inaccurate. > now >> if we are only talking about streets, cities, and states over all, the > Sense >> Nav is great. the streets in phoenix never change. what changes is the >> businesses, locations, and information. staying up to date with all this >> information when it is ever changing would be impossible if maps were >> updated every year, but to let it go out three plus years would be > virtually >> ridiculous to expect any kind of accurate information. let me explain... >> I >> searched for a restaurant that I knew was on a particular corner just did >> not know the phone number. I searched using the search by name, then >> category, then by setting my virtual position to that corner and doing a >> look around. still no results were returned for the restaurant. after I >> thought about it the POI I was looking for was only there for about two >> years or so. as I looked for other businesses such as a local gym, gas >> station, and restaurant about half of the searches were not easily found, >> were not found, or the information given was not correct. the only reason > I >> do not use the sense nav currently is because at this point the maps on > the >> sense nav are to far behind for Phoenix and its metro areas ever changing >> and growing communities. I do not expect for a GPS SYSTEM FOR SIGHTED OR >> blind to be 100 percent accurate, but what I do expect is for a product > such >> as a GPS SYSTEM TO STAY AS CURRENT AS POSSIBLE. Sendero is a very big >> name >> in GPS FOR THE BLIND, THEY HAVE A GREAT SYSTEM, AND ALWAYS HAVE UP TO >> DATE >> maps for their devices. my only question is what has taken so long for >> the >> Sense nav? when the voice sense and the Braille sense came out the talk > was >> that these products were top of the line, were small, powerful, and had > lots >> of promises in store for the future. well three years later, there are >> little to no major upgrades on OS, THE Daisy player still has no support > for >> RFB AND D, NLS AUDIO BOOKS, AND STILL NO UPDATES FOR PROGRAMS RUNNING ON > THE >> voice sense. the Braille note is evolving every year and changing with >> the >> times while the sense products seem to be three years back. I guess it is >> just frustrating because I bought a voice sense because the size, power, > and >> possibilities. three years later I am starting to feel let down, and that >> maybe I made the wrong decision. >> Raul I know you are very passionate about the products you have and I >> know >> you always try to help everyone with them, my only problem is that all of >> the sense users bought a device that they hoped was going to shine when > they >> bought it and continue to shine through the years to come. we are not so >> bright these days. please take these things I say as a frustrated >> customer >> who would like to voice their opinion somewhere that it might be heard >> and >> taken into consideration. this is in no way a direct slander towards GW >> Micro, Sendero, or Hims. >> >> Bryan Duarte Blind Ambitions >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Raul A. Gallegos [mailto:[email protected]] >> Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2010 8:53 PM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: [GWN] FRUSTRATIONS ABOUT THE Sense products >> >> Bryan, I'm curious, where you live, have the maps changed that much from >> 2007 to 2010 that it makes your current SenseNav unusable like you say? >> Don't get me wrong, I'm not disputing what you say and I'm not trying to >> come off like what you say isn't important. However in testing the 2010 >> maps and comparing them to the various cities I've traveled to or >> checked out in virtual mode, not much has changed other than some >> updated names for major roads. What has changed a lot is the POI DATA. >> >> Regarding the SyncBraille, if it's out of warranty, with any hardware >> product, a standard $45 analysis charge is always charged. So we are not >> singling you out here with it. Regarding the firmware, I have personally >> been pushing for new updates for a long time. Whether you believe me or >> not is up to you, but I think that anyone who knows me will believe that >> I feel strongly that the Sense notetakers are very good and they need to >> stay up-to-date. If I had the rights and resources, I would have updated >> them myself. >> >> Many thanks. >> >> On 5/13/2010 11:05 AM, Bryan Duarte wrote: >> > I am with you on this issue sir. I bought a voice sense, sync Braille, >> > and the sense nave right when they were released. now I have had a >> > voice >> > sense with no promised up grades, a sync Braille that no longer works >> > and to get it fixed they want to charge me 45 dollars a half hour to >> > diagnose the problem then parts and labor is separate, and a sense nav >> > that has maps from who knows how long ago with no information on when >> > and how much a new upgrade will cost. don't get me wrong I love my >> > voice >> > sense and the sync Braille when it worked was great. the sense nav was >> > awesome when the map was accurate but now that times have moved on and >> > the technology has not things are looking down on the distributors and >> > manufacturers. to me making new products when the old products you >> > currently have are not being maintained is a little backwards I think. >> > I >> > use to use my voice sense a lot more when it was an all in one device >> > that was up to date on all systems. now that I have a firm ware that >> > could not even pretend to bat an eye at other note takers and a sense >> > nav that was awesome three years ago when it was somewhat accurate as >> > to >> > what was around me, but now I have over 8 thousand dollars invested >> > into >> > a refreshable Braille display that acts as a Braille paper weight, and >> > a >> > GPS RECEIVER THAT TAKES UP SPACE IN MY TRAVEL BACK PACK JUST WAITING TO >> > come out and play some day in the future. >> > >> > >> > >> > Bryan Duarte Blind Ambitions >> > >> > >> > >> > ininF:* erik burggraaf [mailto:[email protected]] >> > ininSent:* Thursday, May 13, 2010 6:36 AM >> > ininTo:* [email protected] >> > ininSubject:* Re: [GWN] Tip1 for the new Sense notetaker firmware >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Again, it's the licensing, not the software that is at issue. >> > >> > What I'm reading is that braille note and mobile geo can physically >> > share map data on properly licensed and compatible devices, but >> > braille sense can't, which is a severe limitation. >> > >> > Don't forget that all these devices are built on the same >> > development kit, no matter what brand name you put on it. That >> > doesn't make them all equal, but it at least holds out the option >> > to >> > have them compatible. An option which, based on what people are >> > saying here, braille note and mobile geo offer, but sensenav does > n.. >> > >> > Then we have the issue of the licensing for current maps. For >> > example, I've just found out that 2010 maps are only licensed to >> > mobile geo 2. That of course is so that I and others like me will >> > have to by mspbled and mgeo2 to get a current map, which we have >> > the >> > option to do. But if the 2010 map were licensed to sensenav, then >> > one way or the other sensenav could use it. Taking care of this >> > licensing shouldn't require a firmware upgrade, but if it did, then >> > it could be done by a patch without requiring an entire firmware, >> > since they did that very thing for the braille note. If a fee had >> > to be charged for upgrading maps, well, so be it. Everyone has a >> > right to make money at what they do. Users who aren't greatly >> > effected by using old map data can buy a case of beer on the >> > weekend, where-z hard core travellers who need consistent accuracy >> > could go without for a weekend or two and get the upgrade. In >> > fact, >> > I'm reasonably sure that any one who forked out 6 grand for a bsp, >> > and $1600 for sensenav are not going to quibble at a $60-$80 >> > upgrade >> > fee for the map data for their high priced kit. Even sighted gps >> > users incur that cost, although most commercial gps are farely >> > disposable and so the cost is usually built into a whole new unit >> > and they don't realize they're paying for it. >> > >> > This doesn't seem like rocket science to me. Old map, increasingly >> > inaccurate, potential time, money and safety concern. Answer, give >> > the customer an option to pay for a new map when an update becomes >> > available. Then if you want to trundle around unfamiliar areas >> > with >> > a three year old map on your $8000 gps, well you go on and giver, >> > but the rest of us can be getting on with the best possible >> > information, especially when you're like me and you need it for >> > work >> > or school. >> > >> > best, >> > >> > Erik Burggraaf >> > Join me Wednesday, May 26th at CNIB Tech Aids fair in Toronto. >> > I'll >> > be at the assistive computing booth from 2 to 4 in the afternoon >> > and >> > circulating for the rest of the day. >> > http://www.erik-burggraaf.com >> > 888-255-5194 >> > >> > On 2010-05-12, at 5:18 AM, Keith Bucher wrote: >> > >> > >> > Erik, >> > >> > >> > >> > Sense Nav is a HIMS OR Gw Micro product not a Sendero >> > product. >> > >> > Sendero licenses it to GW Micro and HIMS. If you use Sense > Nav, >> > >> > as of right now, you are stuck with the 2007 maps. The later > maps >> > >> > are just for the Braillenote products from Humanware. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Keith >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > If you wish to unsubscribe from this list, visit: >> > >> > >> > >> > http://www.gwmicro.com/listserv >> > >> > >> > If you wish to unsubscribe from this list, visit: >> > >> > http://www.gwmicro.com/listserv >> >> >> -- >> Raul A. Gallegos >> GW Micro Technical Support And Product Specialist >> Voice 260-489-3671, Fax 260-489-2608 >> Web http://www.gwmicro.com >> >> If you wish to unsubscribe from this list, visit: >> >> http://www.gwmicro.com/listserv >> >> >> If you wish to unsubscribe from this list, visit: >> >> http://www.gwmicro.com/listserv >> >> >> If you wish to unsubscribe from this list, visit: >> >> http://www.gwmicro.com/listserv > > If you wish to unsubscribe from this list, visit: > > http://www.gwmicro.com/listserv > > > If you wish to unsubscribe from this list, visit: > > http://www.gwmicro.com/listserv > If you wish to unsubscribe from this list, visit: http://www.gwmicro.com/listserv If you wish to unsubscribe from this list, visit: http://www.gwmicro.com/listserv
