Yes, it is true that Valve is under no obligation to notify third party plug-in providers about anything they are doing... it may make reasonable sense to reasonable people, but nothing is forcing Valve to do so. On the other hand... no company can survive if their customers are repeatedly subject to loss of whatever service that company provides... be it disruption in product performance or in the supply chain. Valve appears to have the supply chain issued locked-up in that you automatically get the updates or (in the case of servers) are forced to download the updates or face loosing your listing however; the service side of the equation is perceived to be a failure by a fair percentage of server admins. Perhaps this is unfair to Valve, but it is the general perception and perception trumps reality every time. It is an established fact that without servers there is no game and most servers are running mods and plug-ins and these products wouldn't exist unless there was a valid measurable need for them. For Valve to imply that the problems caused by their updates (which are not optional, are strictly the responsibility of the third party providers, is for Valve to turn it's back on it's own installed customer base. This is never a good thing. I sometimes wonder why we play this game... what's the point really? But then again, why do people bowl or play golf or tennis... these are all games that people play for enjoyment... just like we do. The only difference is that we use a computer and they use a ball, or a club, or a racket. So what if every time AMF made an improvement to their bowling machines all bowling centers no longer worked... of if they improved their tennis rackets all the tennis courts in the world stopped working or made a change to their golf clubs all the golf courses closed for a week? This would never be tolerated and I doubt that AMF would try to blame these problems on the way people were attempting to use their products... even if it were true. It is absolutely true that the plug-in makers are responsible for altering their code to accommodate changes Valve makes... that fact is not in question. Several on this list have made reasonable suggestions as to how Valve could easily avoid all the problems for their customers by either making the third party providers aware of code changes or having a few servers of their own running the third party stuff and notify the handful of third party providers if an update will break their code. This appears to be a reasonable approach. Neither myself or anyone's else is suggesting that Valve alter their code to fit third parties... just let the third parties know that the change will break their code and give them a few days before the update release to fix the problem. I'm certain that the server admins would be extremely grateful for that simply act of sanity.
-----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2006 9:12 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [hlds] Counter-Strike: Source update released Some of us do not have a choice of using these plugins. People have asked nicely over and over again that Valve merely communicate with the four or five main plugin developers before a patch is released so those of us that have to run these plugins do not have our servers down waiting for a fix. It is bad enough that you ram these updates (that half the time make it worse) down people's throats. But you offer no prep, no indication of what you are changing or breaking. Why don't you see if the popular plugins break updates before release? How long would it take to test the four or five common plugins that everyone uses and tell admins what works and what doesn't so that everyone does not have to scramble to get their servers to stop crashing? If it were not for MODs and plugins I would have stopped playing HL years ago. The people that run servers are your lifeblood, we are not asking a lot just a little consideration. As someone else said, if the SDK offered everything that the plugin developers needed I am sure they would use it. but they don't. -YMAC On 8/25/06 1:55 AM, "Alfred Reynolds" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > The problem is that these plugins are hacking into hard coded offsets in > the game server, one tiny code change from us and the plugin blows up. > The solution is for them to use the plugin API we provide which doesn't > have this problem. If you don't like fragile plugins that crash your > game server then please don't use them. > > - Alfred > > Adam Sando wrote: >> From a good faith perspective, yes they should engage 3rd party >> developers to ensure adequate testing has taken place. From a project >> deadline point of view, taking into account the fact most CEO's/Boards >> of directors are quite tight with timelines, they might not want to >> have >> their dev teams engage 3rd party developers to ensure their updates >> work, as this could be seen as a monumental waste of time. >> >> Ethically, it would be nice if valve had a strong relationship with >> the 3rd party development base out there, however sometimes business >> takes >> precedence over pleasure. It's just hard to define how much a part of >> Valves business, comes from Game Server Administrators, and how much >> would come from other market avenues. >> >> I might not be right, but this is what I would think happens at Valve >> when they are planning their updates? >> >> Regards, >> Adam >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [DumB]TeXas >> Sent: Friday, 25 August 2006 1:57 PM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: RE: [hlds] Counter-Strike: Source update released >> >> I don't think you have read what I said though Adam, I haven't said >> they >> have any legal obligations and I haven't said that _they_ should make >> sure things works with their updates. >> >> What I suggested was that they do more of an effort to help the >> developers to debug their own plugins before updates go official - by >> for an example providing a test environment such as an update they can >> apply a few days before the release. This way the _developers of the >> 3rd >> party plugins_ can do their job and get it working with the new >> updates. >> This should only mean extending the time before a new update by a few >> days which doesn't matter when it comes to cosmetic updates such as >> this >> one. >> >> If anything, this goes under a moral obligation, to help all the >> people >> out there putting time, money and effort into running their games on >> servers and developing 3rd party plugins that makes their games >> playable - such as proper admin tools. >> >> TeX. :) >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Adam Sando >> Sent: 25. august 2006 05:38 >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: RE: [hlds] Counter-Strike: Source update released >> >> Just remember Tex, Valve have no legal or moral obligations to provide >> support or compatibility with any 3rd party plugins not written by >> Valve. Valve try to make their updates as flawless as possible, >> however >> they are not able to make sure that every infinite combination of >> plugins work together. Not unless you want 1 update per year perhaps? >> ;) >> >> Regards, >> Adam. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [DumB]TeXas >> Sent: Friday, 25 August 2006 1:03 PM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: RE: [hlds] Counter-Strike: Source update released >> >> Some of the metamod plugis appears not to be working - and my little >> rant there still stands regardless. Not that anyone cares about it. I >> just don't think I am the only one that is a 'tad' sick of updates >> breaking everything from a to z - and tbh there could be more effort >> to >> prevent it than there is today. Oh well... >> >> Server with v1.2 beta and the new gametypes.txt, on a windows 2003 >> server machine seems to work like a charm though. Cheers! :) >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt Albiniak >> Sent: 25. august 2006 04:50 >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: [hlds] Counter-Strike: Source update released >> >> link- >> please let me know if your server stays up without a crash for more >> than 2 rounds or 60 minutes. ours isn't, even without mani. :( >> >> On 8/24/06, Link Pankratz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>> Just as an addendum to my last post, the slay command *does* work >>> with >> >>> the new gametypes.txt but I have *not* tested everything else. I have >>> also not experienced the server dying with the player. >>> >>> Link >>> >>> [DumB]TeXas wrote: >>>> Well 1.1.0zi does 'work', as in; it will start and everything will >>>> appear to be working - admin menu works and most admin commands >>>> (not slay) works >> from >>>> what I could see. However, the second a player dies the server dies >>>> with >> it. >>>> So in other words, its not exactly of much use... :P >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list >>> archives, please visit: >>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds >>> >> >> >> -- >> Matt Albiniak >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> _______________________________________________ >> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >> please visit: >> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds >> _______________________________________________ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds _______________________________________________ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
