-- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] Now that I think about, it is actually a good thing that Valve updates break all these plugins.
Its amazing how much coding gets done when this happens. :) Nothing beats poking a stick into the mod communities ant nest. :D It does seem to be a way to breathe fresh air into what appear to be stagnant projects. On 8/28/06, [DumB]TeXas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > "Amen" to your example, I do disagree on one thing though; > > "just let the third parties know that the change will break their code" > > - This would take a lot of resources because valve won't automatically > know > that if they change this particular thing, this and that plugin will > break. > It would require a lot of debugging with 3rd party plugins to figure out > and > this is *not* valves responsibility - however if they just provided the > information and tools necessary for the 3rd party developers to do this > job > them self I think we'd all be happy. > > All that would take is a pre-release of the new updates and possibly a > change-log which I am sure they use in their development anyway. With a > pre-release, fixes/new versions could be ready the second valve officially > release their update(s) - server admins would only have to go to the > various > plugin websites and grab the new version after doing the update and be up > and running again quickly. > > I'm sure this would cut back on time needed for support and discussions > like > this as well - in the end possibly saving you both hassle and money + > having > happy customers which doesn't hurt. ;) > > I think there have been similar discussions like this going on for ages. I > noticed the same thing has just started at the linux mail-list as well > with > basically the same concept of pre-releasing updates a few days in advance > being suggested. Maybe its time for valve to take this seriously and look > into the possibility if this have not been done already? > > I'd be very grateful if Alfred or someone could give us some comments on > this. NOTE: not on the concept of "checking that it works" etc - but on > the > possibility of having a pre-release system. > > - TeX. > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Edward Luna > Sent: 27. august 2006 17:17 > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: [hlds] Counter-Strike: Source update released > Importance: Low > > Yes, it is true that Valve is under no obligation to notify third party > plug-in providers about anything they are doing... it may make > reasonable sense to reasonable people, but nothing is forcing Valve to > do so. On the other hand... no company can survive if their customers > are repeatedly subject to loss of whatever service that company > provides... be it disruption in product performance or in the supply > chain. Valve appears to have the supply chain issued locked-up in that > you automatically get the updates or (in the case of servers) are forced > to download the updates or face loosing your listing however; the > service side of the equation is perceived to be a failure by a fair > percentage of server admins. Perhaps this is unfair to Valve, but it is > the general perception and perception trumps reality every time. > It is an established fact that without servers there is no game and most > servers are running mods and plug-ins and these products wouldn't exist > unless there was a valid measurable need for them. For Valve to imply > that the problems caused by their updates (which are not optional, are > strictly the responsibility of the third party providers, is for Valve > to turn it's back on it's own installed customer base. This is never a > good thing. > I sometimes wonder why we play this game... what's the point really? > But then again, why do people bowl or play golf or tennis... these are > all games that people play for enjoyment... just like we do. The only > difference is that we use a computer and they use a ball, or a club, or > a racket. So what if every time AMF made an improvement to their > bowling machines all bowling centers no longer worked... of if they > improved their tennis rackets all the tennis courts in the world stopped > working or made a change to their golf clubs all the golf courses closed > for a week? This would never be tolerated and I doubt that AMF would try > to blame these problems on the way people were attempting to use their > products... even if it were true. > It is absolutely true that the plug-in makers are responsible for > altering their code to accommodate changes Valve makes... that fact is > not in question. Several on this list have made reasonable suggestions > as to how Valve could easily avoid all the problems for their customers > by either making the third party providers aware of code changes or > having a few servers of their own running the third party stuff and > notify the handful of third party providers if an update will break > their code. This appears to be a reasonable approach. Neither myself > or anyone's else is suggesting that Valve alter their code to fit third > parties... just let the third parties know that the change will break > their code and give them a few days before the update release to fix the > problem. I'm certain that the server admins would be extremely grateful > for that simply act of sanity. > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2006 9:12 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [hlds] Counter-Strike: Source update released > > > Some of us do not have a choice of using these plugins. People have > asked > nicely over and over again that Valve merely communicate with the four > or > five main plugin developers before a patch is released so those of us > that > have to run these plugins do not have our servers down waiting for a > fix. > > It is bad enough that you ram these updates (that half the time make it > worse) down people's throats. But you offer no prep, no indication of > what > you are changing or breaking. Why don't you see if the popular plugins > break updates before release? How long would it take to test the four or > five common plugins that everyone uses and tell admins what works and > what > doesn't so that everyone does not have to scramble to get their servers > to > stop crashing? > > If it were not for MODs and plugins I would have stopped playing HL > years > ago. The people that run servers are your lifeblood, we are not asking a > lot just a little consideration. As someone else said, if the SDK > offered > everything that the plugin developers needed I am sure they would use > it. > but they don't. > > -YMAC > > On 8/25/06 1:55 AM, "Alfred Reynolds" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > The problem is that these plugins are hacking into hard coded offsets > in > > the game server, one tiny code change from us and the plugin blows up. > > The solution is for them to use the plugin API we provide which > doesn't > > have this problem. If you don't like fragile plugins that crash your > > game server then please don't use them. > > > > - Alfred > > > > Adam Sando wrote: > >> From a good faith perspective, yes they should engage 3rd party > >> developers to ensure adequate testing has taken place. From a project > >> deadline point of view, taking into account the fact most > CEO's/Boards > >> of directors are quite tight with timelines, they might not want to > >> have > >> their dev teams engage 3rd party developers to ensure their updates > >> work, as this could be seen as a monumental waste of time. > >> > >> Ethically, it would be nice if valve had a strong relationship with > >> the 3rd party development base out there, however sometimes business > >> takes > >> precedence over pleasure. It's just hard to define how much a part of > >> Valves business, comes from Game Server Administrators, and how much > >> would come from other market avenues. > >> > >> I might not be right, but this is what I would think happens at Valve > >> when they are planning their updates? > >> > >> Regards, > >> Adam > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [DumB]TeXas > >> Sent: Friday, 25 August 2006 1:57 PM > >> To: [email protected] > >> Subject: RE: [hlds] Counter-Strike: Source update released > >> > >> I don't think you have read what I said though Adam, I haven't said > >> they > >> have any legal obligations and I haven't said that _they_ should make > >> sure things works with their updates. > >> > >> What I suggested was that they do more of an effort to help the > >> developers to debug their own plugins before updates go official - by > >> for an example providing a test environment such as an update they > can > >> apply a few days before the release. This way the _developers of the > >> 3rd > >> party plugins_ can do their job and get it working with the new > >> updates. > >> This should only mean extending the time before a new update by a few > >> days which doesn't matter when it comes to cosmetic updates such as > >> this > >> one. > >> > >> If anything, this goes under a moral obligation, to help all the > >> people > >> out there putting time, money and effort into running their games on > >> servers and developing 3rd party plugins that makes their games > >> playable - such as proper admin tools. > >> > >> TeX. :) > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Adam Sando > >> Sent: 25. august 2006 05:38 > >> To: [email protected] > >> Subject: RE: [hlds] Counter-Strike: Source update released > >> > >> Just remember Tex, Valve have no legal or moral obligations to > provide > >> support or compatibility with any 3rd party plugins not written by > >> Valve. Valve try to make their updates as flawless as possible, > >> however > >> they are not able to make sure that every infinite combination of > >> plugins work together. Not unless you want 1 update per year perhaps? > >> ;) > >> > >> Regards, > >> Adam. > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [DumB]TeXas > >> Sent: Friday, 25 August 2006 1:03 PM > >> To: [email protected] > >> Subject: RE: [hlds] Counter-Strike: Source update released > >> > >> Some of the metamod plugis appears not to be working - and my little > >> rant there still stands regardless. Not that anyone cares about it. I > >> just don't think I am the only one that is a 'tad' sick of updates > >> breaking everything from a to z - and tbh there could be more effort > >> to > >> prevent it than there is today. Oh well... > >> > >> Server with v1.2 beta and the new gametypes.txt, on a windows 2003 > >> server machine seems to work like a charm though. Cheers! :) > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt Albiniak > >> Sent: 25. august 2006 04:50 > >> To: [email protected] > >> Subject: Re: [hlds] Counter-Strike: Source update released > >> > >> link- > >> please let me know if your server stays up without a crash for more > >> than 2 rounds or 60 minutes. ours isn't, even without mani. :( > >> > >> On 8/24/06, Link Pankratz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >>> Just as an addendum to my last post, the slay command *does* work > >>> with > >> > >>> the new gametypes.txt but I have *not* tested everything else. I > have > >>> also not experienced the server dying with the player. > >>> > >>> Link > >>> > >>> [DumB]TeXas wrote: > >>>> Well 1.1.0zi does 'work', as in; it will start and everything will > >>>> appear to be working - admin menu works and most admin commands > >>>> (not slay) works > >> from > >>>> what I could see. However, the second a player dies the server dies > >>>> with > >> it. > >>>> So in other words, its not exactly of much use... :P > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list > >>> archives, please visit: > >>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > >>> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Matt Albiniak > >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list > archives, > >> please visit: > >> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > >> > > _______________________________________________ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > > > _______________________________________________ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.6/428 - Release Date: 8/25/2006 > > > > _______________________________________________ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > -- _______________________________________________ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
