On 3/4/23 22:57, Seymour J Metz wrote:
ObDieJungfrauvonOrleans Believe that if you want' it wont change the reality.
I know it's reality as I'm an experienced C++ programmer. Modern C++ is
a thing. It's a term used to describe the C++ language from C++11 and
newer, when the language was reinvented.
https://github.com/isocpp/CppCoreGuidelines/blob/master/CppCoreGuidelines.md
________________________________________
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU> on behalf of David
Crayford <dcrayf...@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, April 3, 2023 10:38 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Fascinating Interview with Steve Jobs [non-mainframe] - now Gary
Kildall
On 3 Apr 2023, at 10:03 pm, Seymour J Metz <sme...@gmu.edu> wrote:
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."
Modernity is determined by the original design, not by the latest tweak C++
still has defects inherited from C; there are later languages that were
designed ab initio, with no inherited defects.
What nonsense. You’re just making it up as you go along.
________________________________________
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU> on behalf of David
Crayford <dcrayf...@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, April 3, 2023 9:53 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Fascinating Interview with Steve Jobs [non-mainframe] - now Gary
Kildall
OK, I’ll rephrase. Modern C++ is one of the most modern programming languages
in use today. C compatibility is in the past. C++20 introduced modules and
reflection is already available in some compilers.
On 3 Apr 2023, at 9:46 pm, Seymour J Metz <sme...@gmu.edu> wrote:
Contemporary and modern mean very different things, and [[C++]] mentions
neither. Stroustrup admitted that the design of C++was compromised by
compatibility concerns.
________________________________________
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU> on behalf of David
Crayford <dcrayf...@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, April 3, 2023 7:58 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Fascinating Interview with Steve Jobs [non-mainframe] - now Gary
Kildall
On 3/4/23 19:48, Seymour J Metz wrote:
Why switch to C++ rather than to a more modern language?
It's widely acknowledged that C++20 is one of the most contemporary
programming languages being used today [1]. With its compiled approach
and low-level memory access, it's difficult to find a more robust
systems level programming language available on z/OS. Although Rust
could be seen as an improvement, it's important to note that IBM has
declared that they currently have no intentions of creating a Rustc
front-end for LLVM.
[1]
https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FC%252B%252B20&data=05%7C01%7Csmetz3%40gmu.edu%7Caec85eb9d9864fbbabd208db34511f74%7C9e857255df574c47a0c00546460380cb%7C0%7C0%7C638161295248501155%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=3pNB91zg8zKChNMGoqXe3NYq%2Fu9JWF2IY53uP%2F1k2AQ%3D&reserved=0
--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
________________________________________
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of
David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, April 3, 2023 7:38 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Fascinating Interview with Steve Jobs [non-mainframe] - now Gary
Kildall
On 3/4/23 18:11, Seymour J Metz wrote:
I, OTOH, was appalled by C ever since it came out, much preferring PL/I.
Certainly, the reasons for PL/I's failure are subject to debate, but
there are several factors that may have contributed:
1.
IBM was the primary stakeholder and developer of PL/I, which may
have limited its adoption and prevented a more diverse community
from contributing to its development.
2.
IBM's focus on mainframe computing meant that PL/I was primarily
used in that context, which may have limited its appeal outside of
that niche.
3.
FORTRAN was already well-established as a language for scientific
computing, which may have made it difficult for PL/I to gain
traction in that area.
4.
Other languages, such as Ada, were designed with more open standards
and free toolchains, which may have made them more attractive to
developers than PL/I.
As for assembler, there are a lot of things that I can do in a single statement
that are awkward and verbose in C. Further, 95% of my experience has been with
macro assemblers, and C's macro language looks like a joke.
You can't optimize for hardware that hasn't been invented yet! Almost
all C compiler can also compile C++. I recommend to people who whinge
about C string handling to just switch to C++ and use std::string. The
C++ gospel is ruled by the zero-overhead principle. In other words, you
only pay for what you use.
--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
________________________________________
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Tom
Brennan [t...@tombrennansoftware.com]
Sent: Monday, April 3, 2023 1:03 AM
To:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Fascinating Interview with Steve Jobs [non-mainframe] - now Gary
Kildall
I actually always liked C, maybe because its original simplicity
reminded me of Assembler. I mean, what other language can you goof up a
length value or pointer and overwrite a bunch of other data areas by
mistake? Oh yeah, Assembler!
On 4/2/2023 9:29 PM, Clem Clarke wrote:
In my mind, Gary Kildall was a genius. Not only for his operating
systems, but he also had PL/I running on PCs when everyone else said it
was impossible. Now, we are stuck with "C".
Also, Kildall had a GUI called GEM out years before Windows.
Unfortunately, the same man that effectively killed that OS/2 and forced
us all to suffer through Win95 and Win98 etc stopped much innovation.
When the IBM PC came out, I used DRI's PL/I when I converted the
mainframe version of Jol to run on the PC. It did pretty much
everything a System Programmer would need to do, far more simply than C
(in my opinion). Unfortunately, it only ran in the 8086 small model and
after Kildall's death with no possibility of a large or flat memory
model, I felt I had no alternative but to convert the Jol code to C,
which took many years. C's inefficient and dangerous string handling
routines took ages to overcome.
With regard to Kildall's flying when IBM went out, some old notes I
looked at the other day place a slightly interpretation on it. Yes,
apparently he was flying in the morning - delivering software to a
customer. He apparently met with IBM in the afternoon but IBM wanted
them to sign a nondisclosure agreement which was very one sided. And it
seems that IBM wanted to pay Kildall a one time payment for his
operating system, instead of the more usual royalty agreement, which was
not seen as acceptable.
And it seems Bill Gates' mother was either on IBM's board, or was was
closely associated with someone who was. One comment from the short
video is:
=====
" What people seem to forget is that Bill Gate's mother worked on the
board of IBM
and Bill Gates Sr. was very well connected. (and was also on the board
of Planned parenthood)
"Bill Gates is also a Rockafeller's grandson..
"so everything was pretty much set up for him to succeed."
=====
Who knows? Is there anyone in IBM who would know the truth?
Here are three videos that go into it in greater depth. "The Man Who
COULD Have Been Bill Gates [Gary Kildall]"
1. A 15 minute
video:https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fyoutu.be%2FsDIK-C6dGks&data=05%7C01%7Csmetz3%40gmu.edu%7Caec85eb9d9864fbbabd208db34511f74%7C9e857255df574c47a0c00546460380cb%7C0%7C0%7C638161295248501155%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=CUm9IcuwObyWkkJsOAKFFVXqEsD8%2FqlU1%2B1hxl8FgJo%3D&reserved=0
2.https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Farchive.org%2Fdetails%2FGaryKild&data=05%7C01%7Csmetz3%40gmu.edu%7Caec85eb9d9864fbbabd208db34511f74%7C9e857255df574c47a0c00546460380cb%7C0%7C0%7C638161295248501155%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=2lVQNpEu7fL7NflOR9bZpoBVcGBGqUSfo2cKBbbe19s%3D&reserved=0
3. an hour and a half video:
The comments by people who have seen them are very interesting.
Clem Clarke
http://secure-web.cisco.com/1sAAwxsVkmZe9HzPD7hFsNCcgsijjn2RmCx0BKUUQf-AIrg01DcFQTAAYnoSCOUZqQQNGyidMrKbu49HCjMcl-yxsQ0mqSwF1RMDIL7r7TuosqcBxnbhMgUB_ZeYPj0obtzOkaPJLl-cbSp7HqT5cy-cwChCPIZkZOFRHz26IPzW8mORUQ7qLZOQRz50Tgcw0XOg-BF9ggSAR0NxlwUrVNGnz_S6W5-Qd05mUKkzt5HO8Do1Yv30NUluwzUXGFM8wpVDDJQ-7Y_ug0qoNFb3CpQoBETp4eKffiIxNfS5PwmPy-Llug4sZLeJc5f2Lb0E9AIIG0gEXepwP1zr-I1cmyqvr86TVmkyZr9Ux99qWdPvAtBhguQ-Qr98qoyAOdPA1PMEtzmq3Oxv2HqmNZktdIJdLKvIG5WDANwBBoXYT6JilyKxpgvAsKzHJwovuFtRQ/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.Oscar-Jol.com
Mike Schwab wrote:
The terms of the contract with ALL the computer customers was if he
dropped his price to one vendor, he would have to refund the
difference to all other vendors. And his 8086 was not ready yet.
https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FGary_Kildall&data=05%7C01%7Csmetz3%40gmu.edu%7Caec85eb9d9864fbbabd208db34511f74%7C9e857255df574c47a0c00546460380cb%7C0%7C0%7C638161295248501155%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=QTSvBt4gKcToGm2iM%2FQION0tR7WJ1%2FMKgDuPVmANfOw%3D&reserved=0
On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 8:03 AM Jay Maynard<jaymayn...@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm not so sure about Kildall...anyone who snubs a business meeting with
IBM to go flying (a worthy endeavor in and of itself) isn't businessman
enough to compete with Jobs and Gates.
On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 3:05 AM Wayne Bickerdike<wayn...@gmail.com>
wrote:
Very interesting if one-sided interview. He gives Steve Wozniak very
little
credit although Woz really was the inventor and Jobs the salesman in
the
partnership.
I read Sculley's autobiography many years ago (From Pepsi to Apple). It
doesn't describe events quite the same way.
Nevertheless, good that it has surfaced at a time where nobody gets
sued
for defamation.
After I left IBM in 1979 I wrote some applications on the Apple II.
It was
a challenge and from an electrical engineering point of view, it was
poor
with a weak power supply that ran the CPU, Floppy drives which
caused the
screen to wobble when operating.
At the same time Apple were turning out the IIE, there was a host of
other
nicer systems, such as the Cromemco System 3 and Altos 8000 which
ran CP/M
and MP/M and had a more robust construction.
It was a shame that Gary Kildall died so young, he would have been a
great
competitor for Jobs and Gates.
On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 9:28 AM Charles Mills<charl...@mcn.org> wrote:
A friend shared this with me and I thought it was just
extraordinary. It
is not "mainframe" but his comments on what happens when the
marketeers
run
a tech company will resonate with many of us. It’s a fairly long read.
It’s
a transcript of a long interview done for a TV show – only a few
minutes
were actually used – by Bob Cringely, and thought to be lost. Steve
Jobs
was at the time (1995) running NeXT, which he was to sell to Apple a
month
later. It is a fascinating read.
https://secure-web.cisco.com/1Nfarr_Tjkl9iMJ8XHf7V5WnH2tKoSNvJiyDsjIoZXZYIQCEQM1NGE-t8Ic9GsKXTtorPPwXHO1g5-n9_n_xYcMqg6irvRfV0uv4IfvX2L54U2tSc5THrfwOJuyTExaqelP_Eq2bLO6IuVKaOdnu3V9GPBWp27KcTP9icS-RL7HXOs0Ytpy7BEdu4EYB1PK-FFLYi4sGRoe6-SF0E9SY4qLRvZUFo-6OK9PEgNTCOPmfDP31eCXIJ6h9ezHcA4gVQNebovm-8sKoNMe_NjZrbZ5VP5buXLzglf_sH0Ax4PKdAJ7FOxVDSHdShY6r62kSIrsbDV6-8C7CYEaSN5aeSk9ILdaKZv3jpIOVCeuYFDqxQobqJeSsJpFHoujdjNw40LMRD80TU5DqfsXUJgrG3xvg89yb6P9gvJZ13Pc0lW14/https%3A%2F%2Fsameerbajaj.com%2Fjobs%2F
Charles
----------------------------------------------------------------------
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email tolists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
--
Wayne V. Bickerdike
----------------------------------------------------------------------
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email tolists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
--
Jay Maynard
----------------------------------------------------------------------
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email tolists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
----------------------------------------------------------------------
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email tolists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
----------------------------------------------------------------------
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email tolists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
----------------------------------------------------------------------
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email tolists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
----------------------------------------------------------------------
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
----------------------------------------------------------------------
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
----------------------------------------------------------------------
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
----------------------------------------------------------------------
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
----------------------------------------------------------------------
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
----------------------------------------------------------------------
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
----------------------------------------------------------------------
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
----------------------------------------------------------------------
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
----------------------------------------------------------------------
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
