Why switch to C++ rather than to a more modern language?
-- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 ________________________________________ From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, April 3, 2023 7:38 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Fascinating Interview with Steve Jobs [non-mainframe] - now Gary Kildall On 3/4/23 18:11, Seymour J Metz wrote: > I, OTOH, was appalled by C ever since it came out, much preferring PL/I. Certainly, the reasons for PL/I's failure are subject to debate, but there are several factors that may have contributed: 1. IBM was the primary stakeholder and developer of PL/I, which may have limited its adoption and prevented a more diverse community from contributing to its development. 2. IBM's focus on mainframe computing meant that PL/I was primarily used in that context, which may have limited its appeal outside of that niche. 3. FORTRAN was already well-established as a language for scientific computing, which may have made it difficult for PL/I to gain traction in that area. 4. Other languages, such as Ada, were designed with more open standards and free toolchains, which may have made them more attractive to developers than PL/I. > > As for assembler, there are a lot of things that I can do in a single > statement that are awkward and verbose in C. Further, 95% of my experience > has been with macro assemblers, and C's macro language looks like a joke. You can't optimize for hardware that hasn't been invented yet! Almost all C compiler can also compile C++. I recommend to people who whinge about C string handling to just switch to C++ and use std::string. The C++ gospel is ruled by the zero-overhead principle. In other words, you only pay for what you use. > > > -- > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz > http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 > > ________________________________________ > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of > Tom Brennan [t...@tombrennansoftware.com] > Sent: Monday, April 3, 2023 1:03 AM > To:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: Fascinating Interview with Steve Jobs [non-mainframe] - now Gary > Kildall > > I actually always liked C, maybe because its original simplicity > reminded me of Assembler. I mean, what other language can you goof up a > length value or pointer and overwrite a bunch of other data areas by > mistake? Oh yeah, Assembler! > > On 4/2/2023 9:29 PM, Clem Clarke wrote: >> In my mind, Gary Kildall was a genius. Not only for his operating >> systems, but he also had PL/I running on PCs when everyone else said it >> was impossible. Now, we are stuck with "C". >> >> Also, Kildall had a GUI called GEM out years before Windows. >> >> >> Unfortunately, the same man that effectively killed that OS/2 and forced >> us all to suffer through Win95 and Win98 etc stopped much innovation. >> >> When the IBM PC came out, I used DRI's PL/I when I converted the >> mainframe version of Jol to run on the PC. It did pretty much >> everything a System Programmer would need to do, far more simply than C >> (in my opinion). Unfortunately, it only ran in the 8086 small model and >> after Kildall's death with no possibility of a large or flat memory >> model, I felt I had no alternative but to convert the Jol code to C, >> which took many years. C's inefficient and dangerous string handling >> routines took ages to overcome. >> >> With regard to Kildall's flying when IBM went out, some old notes I >> looked at the other day place a slightly interpretation on it. Yes, >> apparently he was flying in the morning - delivering software to a >> customer. He apparently met with IBM in the afternoon but IBM wanted >> them to sign a nondisclosure agreement which was very one sided. And it >> seems that IBM wanted to pay Kildall a one time payment for his >> operating system, instead of the more usual royalty agreement, which was >> not seen as acceptable. >> >> And it seems Bill Gates' mother was either on IBM's board, or was was >> closely associated with someone who was. One comment from the short >> video is: >> ===== >> " What people seem to forget is that Bill Gate's mother worked on the >> board of IBM >> and Bill Gates Sr. was very well connected. (and was also on the board >> of Planned parenthood) >> "Bill Gates is also a Rockafeller's grandson.. >> "so everything was pretty much set up for him to succeed." >> ===== >> >> >> Who knows? Is there anyone in IBM who would know the truth? >> >> Here are three videos that go into it in greater depth. "The Man Who >> COULD Have Been Bill Gates [Gary Kildall]" >> 1. A 15 minute video:https://youtu.be/sDIK-C6dGks >> 2.https://archive.org/details/GaryKild >> 3. an hour and a half video: >> The comments by people who have seen them are very interesting. >> >> Clem Clarke >> http://secure-web.cisco.com/1sAAwxsVkmZe9HzPD7hFsNCcgsijjn2RmCx0BKUUQf-AIrg01DcFQTAAYnoSCOUZqQQNGyidMrKbu49HCjMcl-yxsQ0mqSwF1RMDIL7r7TuosqcBxnbhMgUB_ZeYPj0obtzOkaPJLl-cbSp7HqT5cy-cwChCPIZkZOFRHz26IPzW8mORUQ7qLZOQRz50Tgcw0XOg-BF9ggSAR0NxlwUrVNGnz_S6W5-Qd05mUKkzt5HO8Do1Yv30NUluwzUXGFM8wpVDDJQ-7Y_ug0qoNFb3CpQoBETp4eKffiIxNfS5PwmPy-Llug4sZLeJc5f2Lb0E9AIIG0gEXepwP1zr-I1cmyqvr86TVmkyZr9Ux99qWdPvAtBhguQ-Qr98qoyAOdPA1PMEtzmq3Oxv2HqmNZktdIJdLKvIG5WDANwBBoXYT6JilyKxpgvAsKzHJwovuFtRQ/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.Oscar-Jol.com >> >> Mike Schwab wrote: >>> The terms of the contract with ALL the computer customers was if he >>> dropped his price to one vendor, he would have to refund the >>> difference to all other vendors. And his 8086 was not ready yet. >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Kildall >>> >>> On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 8:03 AM Jay Maynard<jaymayn...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> I'm not so sure about Kildall...anyone who snubs a business meeting with >>>> IBM to go flying (a worthy endeavor in and of itself) isn't businessman >>>> enough to compete with Jobs and Gates. >>>> >>>> On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 3:05 AM Wayne Bickerdike<wayn...@gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Very interesting if one-sided interview. He gives Steve Wozniak very >>>>> little >>>>> credit although Woz really was the inventor and Jobs the salesman in >>>>> the >>>>> partnership. >>>>> >>>>> I read Sculley's autobiography many years ago (From Pepsi to Apple). It >>>>> doesn't describe events quite the same way. >>>>> >>>>> Nevertheless, good that it has surfaced at a time where nobody gets >>>>> sued >>>>> for defamation. >>>>> >>>>> After I left IBM in 1979 I wrote some applications on the Apple II. >>>>> It was >>>>> a challenge and from an electrical engineering point of view, it was >>>>> poor >>>>> with a weak power supply that ran the CPU, Floppy drives which >>>>> caused the >>>>> screen to wobble when operating. >>>>> >>>>> At the same time Apple were turning out the IIE, there was a host of >>>>> other >>>>> nicer systems, such as the Cromemco System 3 and Altos 8000 which >>>>> ran CP/M >>>>> and MP/M and had a more robust construction. >>>>> >>>>> It was a shame that Gary Kildall died so young, he would have been a >>>>> great >>>>> competitor for Jobs and Gates. >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 9:28 AM Charles Mills<charl...@mcn.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> A friend shared this with me and I thought it was just >>>>>> extraordinary. It >>>>>> is not "mainframe" but his comments on what happens when the >>>>>> marketeers >>>>> run >>>>>> a tech company will resonate with many of us. It’s a fairly long read. >>>>> It’s >>>>>> a transcript of a long interview done for a TV show – only a few >>>>>> minutes >>>>>> were actually used – by Bob Cringely, and thought to be lost. Steve >>>>>> Jobs >>>>>> was at the time (1995) running NeXT, which he was to sell to Apple a >>>>> month >>>>>> later. It is a fascinating read. >>>>>> >>>>>> https://secure-web.cisco.com/1Nfarr_Tjkl9iMJ8XHf7V5WnH2tKoSNvJiyDsjIoZXZYIQCEQM1NGE-t8Ic9GsKXTtorPPwXHO1g5-n9_n_xYcMqg6irvRfV0uv4IfvX2L54U2tSc5THrfwOJuyTExaqelP_Eq2bLO6IuVKaOdnu3V9GPBWp27KcTP9icS-RL7HXOs0Ytpy7BEdu4EYB1PK-FFLYi4sGRoe6-SF0E9SY4qLRvZUFo-6OK9PEgNTCOPmfDP31eCXIJ6h9ezHcA4gVQNebovm-8sKoNMe_NjZrbZ5VP5buXLzglf_sH0Ax4PKdAJ7FOxVDSHdShY6r62kSIrsbDV6-8C7CYEaSN5aeSk9ILdaKZv3jpIOVCeuYFDqxQobqJeSsJpFHoujdjNw40LMRD80TU5DqfsXUJgrG3xvg89yb6P9gvJZ13Pc0lW14/https%3A%2F%2Fsameerbajaj.com%2Fjobs%2F >>>>>> >>>>>> Charles >>>>>> >>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >>>>>> send email tolists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >>>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Wayne V. Bickerdike >>>>> >>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >>>>> send email tolists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >>>>> >>>> -- >>>> Jay Maynard >>>> >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >>>> send email tolists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >> send email tolists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >> >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email tolists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email tolists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
