Phil, You are "Preaching to the Choir".. LOL What you say is true for the most part. BTW, all this I taught for years. And what you say is the professional and correct approach. I agree with most of what you say.. Because I'm one of the few "Old Farts" who adopts and enjoys new technology. But please know that .....Always, my mantra has been .. Knowledge, Application and Opportunity.
I try to suggest that a DIY newbie need NOT buy the newest, most expensive tool to do a job. I would rather suggest an alternative rather , as I said, 'Throw money after the problem'. God knows, we see THAT kind of a solution used in the sailboat world much too often. Bragging rights, and all that. As you know, It's all too easy to buy the Biggest , Baddest, Whiz-bang Thingy on the block. When a simple "hammer" may drive the "nail" just as well. Too often, those of us who have the benefit of being a technician in a particular field, Claim to have the "Only" answer, when good old "Barnyard" experience ... May work as well. I will continue using my ratchet Crimper in most cases, but once in a while..... I'll whip out the old Iron, Sniff the Rosin smoke and touch a connection with some good old 60/40..(yes I still have some LEAD based solder)..ROFLMAO !! Uniform Whisky, Ralph Ahseln "Oblio" Lying: Hayden Bay, Portland OR From: Phil Agur Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 11:31 AM To: [email protected] Subject: [IC27A] Was: Long time lurker......1st time poster Now: Solder vs Crimped repairs Hi Ralph, I've been out of town for a few days but I'd like to get back to this beneficial discussion. I think it's safe to say the goals of either process are the same: 1. A mechanically secure connection with a gas tight seal. 2. Any connection on a boat should include a strain relief. Last Thursday before I headed out of town I tallied up how many soldering "irons" I have and came up with 7. Oddly I think I only have 6 crimpers of which only two are ratchet style. So for me, the discussion centers around which process can I explain in this forum and feel confident it can be carried out correctly without much if any feedback. Soldering a Wire Splice: Traditionally speaking (before SMT technology) solder was only used to create a seal to prevent oxidation from affecting the connection. Which is how it would be used maintain our traditionally wired boats. That means every connection needs to be mechanically secure prior to the application of solder. For the most part that means you would perform a western union splice first to connect two wires and then seal it with solder. This process does focus stress at the weak points between the splice area and the insulation but it has nothing to do with the application of the solder, it is just the bare wire being more flexible that the joint or insulated portions of the wire. Adhesive lined (or self sealing) shrink tubing is a great way to protect these weak points. Using something like Starbrite Liquid Electrical Tape is easy insulation but won't protect the weak points. Electrical tape is somewhere in between but won't stand up like the Adhesive lined shrink tubing. One of the big things for a soldered wire joint is how the wire insulation is stripped. It must be done in a way that does not nick the copper conductors. This is not the case for the home construction industry so be very mindful of stripers you got at the home improvement center. You want a stripper that says it is "Nick Free". If you assemble a perfect western union splice with nicked conductors the nick will be right at the weak point mentioned above and can lead to a break very quickly. Most soldering experts focus on the temperature of the iron as a way of controlling the soldering process but that is only half the story when it comes to choosing the correct soldering iron. Heating a joint for the soldering process with an iron is a game of thermal dynamics (heat rise over time). First the mass of the tip needs to be larger than the joint to be soldered. We usually talk about soldering iron power but the heater is there to heat the tip but the tip is there to transfer the heat to the joint. So the tip must be the right size and kept perfectly clean and tinned before you attempt to solder with it. I focus on the time it takes to solder a joint. I give it 3 seconds, a forth second for a hail marry attempt, and if you hit 5 seconds you're done - get the iron off the joint something is wrong with your set-up or preparation. At this point you recheck all your preparation basics, let things cool down, and try again paying particular attention to how you hold the tip to the splice to transfer heat. If you fail again you can plan on changing your set-up. Ralph > If this were a crimp process I could specify the stripper, the brand & model crimp lug, and the brand & model crimp tool to be used. I've never thought to try to do the same for soldering but do you think we came do the same for the soldering 16 AWG stranded wire? I tend to use my Weller soldering gun on these tasks so I really don't have an iron I'd recommend here. Phil Agur s/v Wing Tip C270 LE #184 MMSI 366901790 See Western Union splice http://www.tpub.com/content/construction/14027/img/14027_122_2.jpg From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ralph Ahseln Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2010 4:23 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [IC27A] Long time lurker......1st time poster Hey Phil, I don't disagree with your assessment at all. In fact I Crimp most of my fittings. I reserve Soldering for the proper and timely applications. It's quite true that a Bad soldering is bad in many ways. It's also true that a poor Crimp (even with a ratchet tool) is as bad. By the way, I have and can, teach how to solder properly in less than an hour. I guess the problem I have with most comments about soldering is the mythology that seems to follow it. That doing it somehow "Weakens" the wire/connection. (I've even heard it used to discourage someone from Tinning a bare wire. ?? ). Even the line often said.. "vibration prone" needs a good deal more explanation. Too often it's used as a "mysterious" threat. There's even a kind of thinking that it's the OLD Fashioned way. As in Most things of this nature, THE....Where, What, When and Type of Application.. should be paramount in explanations. IMHO, Both methods should be taught. Then the argument would be over. LOL To simply say to use a Crimper may be misleading. And sure as hell it's and expensive tool for a Do it yourself person. IMHO. For me personally, I would be reluctant to suggest someone spend nearly $100 for a ratchet crimper .. .... to do ONE or TWO splices or connectors....When a soldered connector, a liberal covering of Glue Gun Glue (it's what's in an Adhesive Heat Shrink connector), and some inexpensive heat shrink tubing, would cost under a couple of bucks.. And last as well. The Crimp is a wonderful development for us in the world of Electrics, but has some draw backs as well. The incorrect Die, improper tension, and not the least of which, poor "Lay" of the wire strands... All can make a bad crimp. As to "vibration prone". There should be a discussion about the mechanical stress put on copper wire by the "Shear Pressure" of crimping. Yes, I suppose there have been tests done to "Prove" one better than the other, And, I'm sure there is a ton of Anecdotal experiences ( I never trust a memory or observation that's Second Hand).... But, What we do here on our boats is NOT Rocket Science. The "G" forces seen in a Catalina 27 or 270 surely are a BIT less than the Mars Probes ! Me? I use both methods. I paid the high price for a Ratchet Crimp Tool because I had a lot of Electrical connections to do .. on MY boat and on a couple of Friend's boats.. The Ability to make up Many connectors in a short time .. without having to deal with a heated iron, rosin core solder, Adhesive glue and tubing, was the reason I bought the Crimper, But, when project Fits....(like most UNDER water applications) or, the occasion arises and the iron is near, I'll do a Soldering job. What I'd love to see is more of a practical approach to Advice and Council on our Forums. Suggestions of Many Options and Other Methods, rather than a One Size Fits All... or the suggestion of " I wouldn't do it THAT way"... Or, what is Anathema to me... To simple "Throw Money at the Problem" As I said, I'd like us to lay out all the possibilities open to the Do It Yourselfer, rather than scare the Bejesus out of them. With Respect as Always, ralph ahseln "Oblio" Lying: Portland OR From: Phil Agur Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2010 2:59 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: [IC27A] Long time lurker......1st time poster Hi Ralph, You can buy wire where the strands are tin plated or you can buy wire where the bundle of strands is "tinned" with an over coat of solder. The "tinned" is more prone to vibration failure. I think our only disagreement on soldering is how long it takes to become an expert at soldering. I'd guess more than 75% (ok right out of the air) of the folks that think they know how to solder actual don't and get luck from time to time. It takes a good 2 or 3 days of instruction to learn how to solder and the certification test is several hours. On the other hand I can tell someone which terminals and crimper to use and be fairly assured they will achieve a quality connection as a result. I'm not opposed to soldering, having lectured on soldering techniques at 26 assembly sites in the US for Intel one year, I'm just certain it's not something that is easy to pick up on your own. Phil Agur s/v Wing Tip C270 LE #184 MMSI 366901790 From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ralph Ahseln Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2010 1:24 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [IC27A] Long time lurker......1st time poster Huh ? What ? Explain please . (As many old timers here know, Phil and I have had a long term , friendly, disagreement about Soldering and Tinning.) Respectfully, Ralph Ahseln "Oblio" From: Phil Agur "........ It should be tin plated stranded copper wire but not "Tinned" in theory......"
