Sir,
I would like to add another point in favour of *S. violaceum*. In his
thread Sourav provides us complete list of *Solanum* in Bangladesh -
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/indiantreepix/AUCzMRWw5NU/c-Hmy88mwccJ
where
*Solanum anguivi* doesn't exist/listed.
So, the *Solanum indicum* L. of "Bengal Plants" must be *S. violaceum* of
China or Bangladesh.
I would further like to add that my plant is not *Solanum ferox* L.
(perhaps it is also non-L.?) of BP or BoBO, because Haines informs fruits
are 1 inch and Prain informs fruits are 1 inch or more across.
My plant is neither *Solanum incanum* L. because {i} FBI thinks it is
synonymous with *S. melongena* L. (ii) even if it is wild as in FoP, fruits
should be an inch or more (as per FoP
<http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=5&taxon_id=242414374>).
Thank you
Regards
On Sun, Nov 30, 2014 at 1:19 PM, surajit koley <
[email protected]> wrote:
> Sir,
>
> This is very much beyond my online research work! Instead if you ask me
> select one ID between *anguivi* and *violaceum* I would happily accept
> *violaceum* of FoC, specially for my plant
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msg/indiantreepix/mLk33P4a6EI/B02_iNGKOcQJ>,
> for reasons I try to explain below (and while trying I will use the tips
> which I have collected from your comments in various threads) -
>
> - *Solanum anguivi* Lam. is an African plant. I fully agree with your
> view - (usually) much-divided leaves and white flower character as
> supported by FoZ, FoZambesia (KEW featured) and the book "vegetables
> (2004)"
>
> <http://books.google.co.in/books?id=6jrlyOPfr24C&dq=solanum+anguivi&source=gbs_navlinks_s>.
> Moreover, FoZ
> <http://www.zimbabweflora.co.zw/speciesdata/species.php?species_id=150600>
> , The book
>
> <http://books.google.co.in/books?id=6jrlyOPfr24C&pg=PA482&lpg=PA482&dq=solanum+anguivi&source=bl&ots=DqxknQOq1_&sig=alJ-abnzw6N51ke1mZqqygEcO4U&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ruN5VKiqMcaTuAShyIDgBg&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAzgU#v=onepage&q=solanum%20anguivi&f=false>
> , KEW
>
> <http://apps.kew.org/efloras/namedetail.do;jsessionid=F110F2F64C14AD3D288C251D4B525BAA?qry=namelist&flora=fz&taxon=11437&nameid=28993>
> all
> says *S. anguivi* Lam. is synonymous with *Solanum indicum* auct. Non
> L.
> - Flora of British India describes *Solanum indicum* L. but think it
> is only partly Linné's plant. Roxburgh also entered some notes, regarding
> our East Indian plants. Attached here entries from FI and FBI. I have
> failed to find any info on references Roxburgh or Hooker mentioned.
> - TPL thinks the entry in FI (Fl. Ind. i. 570) is not of Linné
>
> <http://www.theplantlist.org/tpl1.1/search?id=tro-29600269&q=Solanum+indicum&ref=tpl1>
> but of Roxburgh <http://www.theplantlist.org/tpl1.1/record/ifn-86583>
> - If we see entry of FBI, we will see *S. indicum* partly L. is
> connected with (i) *anguivi* but not of Lam., (ii) *violaceum* but not
> of Ortega
> - Yet FBI connects it with Cochinchina
>
> So, I think our species, closely connected to China's if not same, is
> Indian version of *S. violaceum* Ortega Since it is very common
> throughout India it can't be Africa's *S. anguivi* Lam.
> African plant may be present in pockets as in Satish Ji's post. But not
> guaranteed, because as per literatures the *violaceum* flower can also be
> "nearly white (Haines)".
>
> Thus far my research goes.
>
> Thank you very much, specially for giving me an opportunity to express
> myself.
>
> Regards
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 30, 2014 at 10:47 AM, Gurcharan Singh <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> You are right Surajit ji, that is why they have been often reffered to S.
>> indicum in Indian Floras
>> To me one difference is that leaves are cleft almost to middle in S.
>> violaceum, sinialte or shallowly lobed in S. anguivi
>> One thing is very obvious. No Flora seems to be describing both. If we
>> find one, perhaps our problem would be solved.
>> The description of S. anguivi in Fl. Zimbabwe, Fl. Pakistan, and
>> Protobase
>> <http://database.prota.org/dbtw-wpd/exec/dbtwpub.dll?AC=QBE_QUERY&BU=http://database.prota.org/search.htm&TN=PROTAB~1&QB0=AND&QF0=Species+Code&QI0=Solanum+anguivi&RF=Webdisplay>
>> record base seems to be varying a lot suggesting the overlap in these Flora.
>> Perhaps a good research material for Surajit. S. angui or S. violaceum,
>> or both in India.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Dr. Gurcharan Singh
>> Retired Associate Professor
>> SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
>> Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
>> Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089
>> http://www.gurcharanfamily.com/
>> http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/
>>
>> On Sat, Nov 29, 2014 at 9:25 PM, surajit koley <
>> [email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> Thank you very much Santhan Ji. But, I think neither flower size nor
>>> fruit size would help in differentiating the two concerned species -
>>> *anguivi* and *violaceum*.
>>>
>>> 1. *Solanum violaceum* Ortega : as per FoC
>>> <http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=2&taxon_id=200020612>
>>> -> flower = 10-12mm X 10-20mm; fruit = 8-13mm
>>> 2. *Solanum anguivi* Lam. : as per 1) KEW
>>>
>>> <http://apps.kew.org/efloras/namedetail.do;jsessionid=F110F2F64C14AD3D288C251D4B525BAA?qry=namelist&flora=fz&taxon=11437&nameid=28993>,
>>> 2) FoZ
>>>
>>> <http://www.zimbabweflora.co.zw/speciesdata/species.php?species_id=150600>
>>> and 3) a book
>>>
>>> <http://books.google.co.in/books?id=6jrlyOPfr24C&pg=PA482&lpg=PA482&dq=solanum+anguivi&source=bl&ots=DqxknQOq1_&sig=alJ-abnzw6N51ke1mZqqygEcO4U&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ruN5VKiqMcaTuAShyIDgBg&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAzgU#v=onepage&q=solanum%20anguivi&f=false>
>>> -> flower = 8-20mm across (KEW) or 6-12mm (book); fruit = 6-13mm (FoZ,
>>> KEW)
>>> or 7-18mm (book)
>>>
>>> Thank you once again
>>> Regards
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Nov 29, 2014 at 9:24 AM, Ponnutheerthagiri Santhan <
>>> [email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In my specimen the fruit is less than 1cm only
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Nov 28, 2014 at 10:21 PM, surajit koley <
>>>> [email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Sir,
>>>>>
>>>>> I am getting more confused. Satish Ji's plant is armed
>>>>> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/indiantreepix/jH-HkA3GjW8 and
>>>>> it looks close to the photographs of FoZ
>>>>> <http://www.zimbabweflora.co.zw/speciesdata/species.php?species_id=150600>
>>>>> .
>>>>>
>>>>> Should we discard your earlier KEY - flowers mostly white with purple
>>>>> veins = *S. anguivi*?
>>>>>
>>>>> Do I take the plant, *S. anguivi* of Pakistan Flora
>>>>> <http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=5&taxon_id=242425625>
>>>>> as *S. violaceum*?
>>>>>
>>>>> To differentiate between *violaceum* and *anguivi* - flower size
>>>>> (20mm against 6-12mm) can be taken as a KEY, fruit is difficult (10mm
>>>>> against 8-18mm), but how do we know the size if it is not mentioned?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you
>>>>> Regards
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Nov 28, 2014 at 10:37 AM, Gurcharan Singh <[email protected]>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Surajit ji
>>>>>> Please read the comments on Satish ji's post. It is not armed at all.
>>>>>> Regarding Flora of Pakistan, I somehow have lost confidence seeing so
>>>>>> many mistakes. Moreover, the Indian Solanum indicum seems to be
>>>>>> segregated
>>>>>> into three species S. lasiocarpum, S. violaceum and S. anguivi, Flora of
>>>>>> Pakistan is silent on S. violaceum.as well as S. lasiocarpum, let us
>>>>>> add S. incanum to the discussion.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Flowers in S. aguivi may be mauve, purple to white in up to
>>>>>> 20-flowered bunches, distinctly star shaped, fruits in bunches; flower
>>>>>> 6-12
>>>>>> across; fruits 8-18 mm across, turning orange to red when ripe
>>>>>>
>>>>>> S. lasiocarpum has densely hirsute, straight prickles, infl. few
>>>>>> flowered, flowers 2 cm across, purple to white, calyx enlarged in fruit;
>>>>>> young fruit densely hairy, orange and 2 cm across when ripe.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> S. violaceum: Plants with fine hairs; prickles on stem short, broad
>>>>>> based; leaves with straight prickles on leaves along veins, flowers up to
>>>>>> 12; corolla blue purple sometimes white, 2 cm across; fruit orange, 1 cm
>>>>>> across.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> S. incanum: though looking similar to S. violaceum, but flowers
>>>>>> always blue-purple, only one flower bisexual, as such one fruit per infl;
>>>>>> flower; corolla 3-3.5 cm across; berry 25-30 mm across, yellow
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Looking at all above I also go with S. anguivi
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dr. Gurcharan Singh
>>>>>> Retired Associate Professor
>>>>>> SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
>>>>>> Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
>>>>>> Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089
>>>>>> http://www.gurcharanfamily.com/
>>>>>> http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 10:35 PM, surajit koley <
>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am very much interested to know. Because, earlier I argued a lot
>>>>>>> with Gurcharan Sir regarding a similar looking species i posted
>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#!topic/indiantreepix/mLk33P4a6EI>.
>>>>>>> And i used a scale.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I argued a lot with Gurcharan Sir, but I think the the flower
>>>>>>> character. as mentioned by Sir, can be taken as an identifying feature,
>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>> can be seen in a site dealing with solanaceae -
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> - http://solanaceaesource.org/taxonomy/term/110380/media
>>>>>>> - http://solanaceaesource.org/taxonomy/term/105603/media
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But I have a question, to know some technical detail about
>>>>>>> inflorescence. I request Gurcharan Sir to make it easy for me -
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1. In the description of *S. violaceum* FoC says the
>>>>>>> inflorescence is "scorpioid raceme" and provides illustration at
>>>>>>> http://www.efloras.org/object_page.aspx?object_id=3450&flora_id=2
>>>>>>> where
>>>>>>> flowers are arranged alternately on the two sides of the main axis
>>>>>>> 2. In the description of *S. anguivi* FoP doesn't give inflo
>>>>>>> type, but provides illustration
>>>>>>> http://www.efloras.org/object_page.aspx?object_id=86826&flora_id=5
>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>> can be seen in Satish Ji's post
>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/indiantreepix/jH-HkA3GjW8,
>>>>>>> where flowers are arranged in one side (secund) of the main axis
>>>>>>> ..... what
>>>>>>> does this type of inflorescence called?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thank you
>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 12:45 PM, J.M. Garg <[email protected]>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Forwarding again for Id confirmation or otherwise please.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Some earlier relevant feedback:
>>>>>>>> I think it is S. violaceum Ortega (syn: *Solanum kurzii* Brace
>>>>>>>> ex Prain). In S. anguivi flowers are white with often purple veins
>>>>>>>> outside,
>>>>>>>> fruit red when mature.
>>>>>>>> Dr. Gurcharan Singh
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> These two species are very closely related, only minor differences
>>>>>>>> exist. Let me provide those differences after referring regional
>>>>>>>> floras.
>>>>>>>> The images uploaded by you seems Solanum incanum, an African
>>>>>>>> species. I also come across the same, roadside from out skirt of
>>>>>>>> Bangalore.
>>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>>> Dr. Santhan P
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think this plant is different from *Solanum violaeum Orteg.* in
>>>>>>>> many-flowered axillary cymes *vs* solitary or few flowers, also
>>>>>>>> the fruits are shining berries, smaller in size, without much enlarged,
>>>>>>>> prickly calyx..
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> However, an authentic version of distinct features from regional
>>>>>>>> floras is awaited, Santhan Ji has assured to provide..
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>> Dr. Nidhan Singh
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> efi page on Solanum violaceum
>>>>>>>> <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/species/m---z/s/solanaceae/solanum/solanum-violaceum>
>>>>>>>> &
>>>>>>>> Solanum anguivi
>>>>>>>> <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/species/m---z/s/solanaceae/solanum/solanum-anguivi>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>>>>>>> From: Ponnutheerthagiri Santhan <[email protected]>
>>>>>>>> Date: 25 October 2014 at 13:06
>>>>>>>> Subject: [efloraofindia:204289] Solanum anguivi Lam SN Oct 30
>>>>>>>> To: efloraofindia <[email protected]>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *Solanum anguivi Lam* (= Solanum indicum var. lividum (Link)
>>>>>>>> Bitter) , wild herb from the hilly areas of Krishnagiri dt. Tamilnadu
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> adjacent Karnataka. The elevation is around 1000m
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> With regards,
>>>>>>>> J.M.Garg
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 'Creating awareness of Indian Flora & Fauna'
>>>>>>>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jmgarg1>
>>>>>>>> The whole world uses my Image Resource
>>>>>>>> <http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:J.M.Garg> of more than
>>>>>>>> a thousand species & eight thousand images of Birds, Butterflies,
>>>>>>>> Plants
>>>>>>>> etc. (arranged alphabetically & place-wise). You can also use them for
>>>>>>>> free
>>>>>>>> as per Creative Commons license attached with each image.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> For identification, learning, discussion & documentation of Indian
>>>>>>>> Flora, please visit/ join our Efloraofindia Google e-group
>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/indiantreepix> (largest
>>>>>>>> in the world- more than 2400 members & 2,00,000 messages on 9.9.14) or
>>>>>>>> Efloraofindia
>>>>>>>> website <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/> (with a
>>>>>>>> species database of more than 10,000 species & 2,00,000 images). Winner
>>>>>>>> of Wipro-NFS Sparrow Awards 2014 for efloraofindia
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>>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Also author of 'A Photoguide to the Birds of Kolkata & Common Birds
>>>>>>>> of India'.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
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>>
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