Thank you Mr. Garg. We can conclude for the time being that the flowers here are V. canescens.
Warm regards, Ashwini > On 12-Apr-2020, at 1:58 PM, J.M. Garg <[email protected]> wrote: > > Hi, Ashwini ji. > I think style matches with the illustration. Ovary is also hairy. > If we may examine hundreds of specimens, we may find little variation here > and there in most of the characters. > All hundreds of specimens can not be put in an image, only a representative > images can be made. Same is for the description. > As far as style of Viola pilosa > <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/species/m---z/v/violaceae/viola/viola-pilosa> > is concerned, we have not seen the close up as you have shown for the other > species. > > > > On Sun, 12 Apr 2020 at 13:10, Ashwini Bhatia <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > Sending here a combined image for reference and comparison. > > Thanks. > Ashwini > > On Sun, 12 Apr 2020 at 13:03, Ashwini Bhatia <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > Dear Mr. Garg, > I agree with you that if we are certain about the flowers on our website here > <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/species/m---z/v/violaceae/viola/viola-pilosa> > being Viola pilosa, then as certainly the flowers from Dharamshala are not > V. pilosa. As the images below show, they have a three-lobed stigma and the > pointed lip. > > https://08511630493324166816.googlegroups.com/attach/18709915a1a38/_DSC0732%20-%20Copy.JPG?part=0.3&view=1&vt=ANaJVrHtj7ZHsf69djLbP1FCOPxM2mjOS-k4-1BGLdC92xV0dz2p5eiPZpbhRnyxjj5OGCfw1gPFLC5YUga35lktvq0Cs9QL9BeT_Y4y4YwJqF-QdnCDEBw > > <https://08511630493324166816.googlegroups.com/attach/18709915a1a38/_DSC0732%20-%20Copy.JPG?part=0.3&view=1&vt=ANaJVrHtj7ZHsf69djLbP1FCOPxM2mjOS-k4-1BGLdC92xV0dz2p5eiPZpbhRnyxjj5OGCfw1gPFLC5YUga35lktvq0Cs9QL9BeT_Y4y4YwJqF-QdnCDEBw> > https://08511630493324166816.googlegroups.com/attach/2f0eca70ef548d1e/ID.jpg?part=0.1&view=1&vt=ANaJVrHOJ5wqfYQZIWIRiwBTCrUsRrn21uwlgV_vAwPX0ZUnlZC05Ue92Ojidg7HhNiOnPsPuZ8hx9EuP4n30fgYYnDOuATzm_TJgcd8alVmOV54DAtrrCI > > <https://08511630493324166816.googlegroups.com/attach/2f0eca70ef548d1e/ID.jpg?part=0.1&view=1&vt=ANaJVrHOJ5wqfYQZIWIRiwBTCrUsRrn21uwlgV_vAwPX0ZUnlZC05Ue92Ojidg7HhNiOnPsPuZ8hx9EuP4n30fgYYnDOuATzm_TJgcd8alVmOV54DAtrrCI> > > These should be the defining characters then. But that will also prove that > the illustration provided by Santosh Agarwal ji is not reliable and neither > is the description in FOP or FOC for that matter. The older literature such > as Flora Simlensis and Flowers of the Himalaya both win here. > > Tabish ji has already included a 3-lobed stigma in his description on FOI, > which stand correct. > > So if FOC, FOP and the illustration of styles cannot be relied upon, how will > we file flowers from Dharamshala under V. canescens? > > Thank you. > Ashwini > > > > > > On Sun, 12 Apr 2020 at 12:03, J.M. Garg <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > Attaching a plate provided by Santosh Agarwal ji in Viola confusa?/ABMAR21 > <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/indiantreepix/v3iEgrK7nOU> > Style is more closer to Viola canescens > <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/species/m---z/v/violaceae/viola/viola-canescens> > rather than Viola pilosa > <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/species/m---z/v/violaceae/viola/viola-pilosa> > > I feel we have to rely more on Flora of Pakistan > <http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=5&taxon_id=134607> as both > the species are listed here (and found in the area) and this issue must have > been deliberated for long times and keys framed accordingly due to confusing > nature between the two. > > Leaves are clearly acuminate in Viola pilosa > <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/species/m---z/v/violaceae/viola/viola-pilosa> > and not so in Viola canescens > <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/species/m---z/v/violaceae/viola/viola-canescens> > There is a clear difference as to how style is visible in the live flowers in > both species at Viola canescens > <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/species/m---z/v/violaceae/viola/viola-canescens> > and Viola pilosa > <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/species/m---z/v/violaceae/viola/viola-pilosa> > One more point is the nature of the lower petal being mostly acute or > acuminate in Viola pilosa > <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/species/m---z/v/violaceae/viola/viola-pilosa> > and obtuse in Viola canescens > <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/species/m---z/v/violaceae/viola/viola-canescens> > > > I think the above three point combined together should clinch the id in most > of the cases. > > > > On Sun, 12 Apr 2020 at 11:14, Ashwini Bhatia <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > Thank you Mr. Garg and Tabish ji for your comments. We can all appreciate the > difficulties involved. > > The issue boils down to which source(s) we trust the most in our > identifications. Especially when the sources we usually refer to do not agree > with each other. > > When I began looking at the two viola species in Dharamshala in 2015, the > first characteristic I looked at was the stipules. I was told that the > fringed ones meant canescens and toothed ones pilosa. Now I have learnt that > these can be variable. FOC describes them for V. Pilosa as "stipules mostly > free, brown or green, lanceolate, margin long or shortly fimbriate-dentate, > apex long acuminate”. > > Flora of China does not include V. canescens in its list of viola species in > China but makes a brief comment under V. pilosa description "In FRPS (51: 90. > 1991), the name Viola canescens Wallich was misapplied to this species.” FRPS > is Latin for Flora of China. This is not elaborated further so we will not > know if the author(s) does not approve of V. canescens as a valid species or > is merely suggesting that these features were earlier confused with V. > canescens. > > Next, I learnt that to know violas, one has to look at the style/stigma. So I > did my best to look at the style closely. I found out that the style is > club-shaped, gradually thickening upwards culminating in a perforated stigma > placed on the side. > > This matches the description given by FOC for V. pilosa. But Flora of > Pakistan gives the stigma for V. canescens as club-shaped but > does not elaborate more. > > FOP does not give the shape of the stigma for V. pilosa but tells us > that it is beaked. The perforation-like stigma, can be seen like a beak from > an angle but I am not sure if I want to base my identification on a feature > that is open to interpretation. > > Flora Simlensis says that V. canescens has a truncated stigma and not > beaked, and describes stigma for V. serpens (synonym of V. pilosa) as being > three-lobed and beaked. The stigma on our plant may look truncated to the > naked eye but under a modest magnification, the shape becomes obvious. > > Flowers of the Himalaya lists V. pilosa as having a 3-lobed stigma with > a beak too but does not comment on the stigma of V. canescens. > > So neither the stipules nor the style/stigma shapes are agreed upon in the > literature. FOC pdf was compiled in 2007 and could be the most recent study > we have on the genus in China/Asia. I am not sure how often the Flora of > Pakistan is updated but the books I have consulted are all much older than > 2007. But since the study does not include V. canescens at all, we are still > left wondering. > > Our species matches the descriptions broadly for V. pilosa in FOC and V. > canescens in FOP. How do we move forward? > > Thank you and regards, > Ashwini > > > > > > > > >> On 12-Apr-2020, at 9:47 AM, Tabish <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> >> This is from FOC description of Viola pilosa: >> "styles clavate, base slightly geniculate, gradually thickened upward; >> stigmas ± flat, not margined, very inconspicuously short beaked in front, >> with smaller stigma hole at tip of beak." >> best wishes >> Tabish >> >> On Sun, 12 Apr, 2020, 8:38 AM J.M. Garg, <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> As both species are quite confusing, these key features are not visible in >> images of Viola canescens at FOI >> <http://www.flowersofindia.net/catalog/slides/Himalayan%20White%20Violet.html>. >> I have doubts about correctness of these images in FOI. >> >> On Sun, 12 Apr 2020 at 08:27, J.M. Garg <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> Pl. see Viola canescens >> <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/species/m---z/v/violaceae/viola/viola-canescens>. >> I think style is the best clue. Here style is club shaped. Leaves are also >> not acuminate. >> >> As per keys in Flora of Pakistan >> <http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=5&taxon_id=134607>: >> 13 <> (12) >> <http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=5&taxon_id=134607#KEY-1-12> >> Stigma beaked. Ovary glabrous (14) >> <http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=5&taxon_id=134607#KEY-1-14> >> + Stigma club shaped. Ovary hairy 2 Viola canescens >> <http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=5&taxon_id=200014339> >> >> 14 <> (13) >> <http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=5&taxon_id=134607#KEY-1-13> >> Leaves acuminate. Sepals lanceolate, acute, ciliate-dentate >> 3 Viola pilosa >> <http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=5&taxon_id=200014403> >> + Leaves obtuse. Sepals ovate, obtuse, entire 1 Viola odorata >> <http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=5&taxon_id=200014395> >> >> On Sat, 11 Apr 2020 at 23:36, Tabish <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> This type of Viola, with all sepals equal and with ciliate margins, I would >> think it is Viola pilosa. >> Tabish >> ------------------------------------------- >> <http://www.flowersofindia.net/>www.flowersofindia.net >> <http://www.flowersofindia.net/> >> The waterhole of flower lovers >> >> >> On Sat, Apr 11, 2020 at 6:24 PM Ashwini Bhatia <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> This is the second species from Dharamshala which is still confusing. The >> flowers can be from pure white to deep mauve and vary in size from 1.5 to >> 2.2cm. Most are wider than long. >> >> The petals are of different shapes and sizes. The two uppermost are the >> broadest at ca. 7mm, the laterals are roughly 5mm wide (both about 13mm >> long). The lowest petal (or the uppermost if you consider resupination, but >> for clarity I am using the lowest) is the narrowest at 4mm and excluding the >> spur about 10mm long. The spur is cylindrical, white, and can be hooked or >> not and is 3mm long. >> >> The leaves are slightly paler underneath, hairy on both surfaces with >> scattered white hairs. The petiole is hairy and the stipules are laciniate >> (with long hair-like projections on both long edges). >> >> The pedicel projects beyond the leaves mostly and is covered on white hairs >> too. Sepals are lanceolate, equal and have hairy margins. >> >> The anthers are pale yellow, two with nectaries projecting into the spur. >> The nectaries are yellow-green, hairy and about 2mm long. >> >> The ovary is hairy at the top. The stigma appears truncated at lower >> magnification but up-close reveals a crater like perforation at the top of >> the club-shaped style. >> >> The seeds are yellow with dark purple warts on their surface. Elaiosomes are >> prominent. >> >> Depending on how we interpret this data, we could either believe this to be >> Viola pilosa or Viola canescens. All comments are welcome. >> >> Thanks. >> Ashwini >> >> All photos taken between 1750 and 2200m in Dharamshala, Himachal Pradesh. >> the flowering season is usually late February to June. A few plants can be >> found well into autumn too. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> With regards, >> J.M.Garg >> 'Creating awareness of Indian Flora & Fauna' >> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jmgarg1> >> Winner of Wipro-NFS Sparrow Awards 2014 for efloraofindia >> <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/award-for-efloraofindia>. >> For identification, learning, discussion & documentation of Indian Flora, >> please visit/ join our Efloraofindia Google e-group >> <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/indiantreepix> (largest in the >> world- more than 3,000 members & 3,00,000 messages on 23.8.18) or >> Efloraofindia website <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/> (with a >> species database of more than 13,000 species & 3,00,000 images of which more >> than 2,50,000 images are directly displayed on 31.1.20). >> The whole world uses my Image Resource >> <http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:J.M.Garg> of more than a >> thousand species & eight thousand images of Birds, Butterflies, Plants etc. >> (arranged alphabetically & place-wise). You can also use them for free as >> per Creative Commons license attached with each image. >> Also author of 'A Photoguide to the Birds of Kolkata & Common Birds of >> India'. >> >> >> -- >> With regards, >> J.M.Garg >> 'Creating awareness of Indian Flora & Fauna' >> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jmgarg1> >> Winner of Wipro-NFS Sparrow Awards 2014 for efloraofindia >> <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/award-for-efloraofindia>. >> For identification, learning, discussion & documentation of Indian Flora, >> please visit/ join our Efloraofindia Google e-group >> <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/indiantreepix> (largest in the >> world- more than 3,000 members & 3,00,000 messages on 23.8.18) or >> Efloraofindia website <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/> (with a >> species database of more than 13,000 species & 3,00,000 images of which more >> than 2,50,000 images are directly displayed on 31.1.20). >> The whole world uses my Image Resource >> <http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:J.M.Garg> of more than a >> thousand species & eight thousand images of Birds, Butterflies, Plants etc. >> (arranged alphabetically & place-wise). You can also use them for free as >> per Creative Commons license attached with each image. >> Also author of 'A Photoguide to the Birds of Kolkata & Common Birds of >> India'. > > > > -- > With regards, > J.M.Garg > 'Creating awareness of Indian Flora & Fauna' > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jmgarg1> > Winner of Wipro-NFS Sparrow Awards 2014 for efloraofindia > <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/award-for-efloraofindia>. > For identification, learning, discussion & documentation of Indian Flora, > please visit/ join our Efloraofindia Google e-group > <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/indiantreepix> (largest in the > world- more than 3,000 members & 3,00,000 messages on 23.8.18) or > Efloraofindia website <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/> (with a > species database of more than 13,000 species & 3,00,000 images of which more > than 2,50,000 images are directly displayed on 31.1.20). > The whole world uses my Image Resource > <http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:J.M.Garg> of more than a thousand > species & eight thousand images of Birds, Butterflies, Plants etc. (arranged > alphabetically & place-wise). You can also use them for free as per Creative > Commons license attached with each image. > Also author of 'A Photoguide to the Birds of Kolkata & Common Birds of > India'. > > > -- > With regards, > J.M.Garg > 'Creating awareness of Indian Flora & Fauna' > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jmgarg1> > Winner of Wipro-NFS Sparrow Awards 2014 for efloraofindia > <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/award-for-efloraofindia>. > For identification, learning, discussion & documentation of Indian Flora, > please visit/ join our Efloraofindia Google e-group > <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/indiantreepix> (largest in the > world- more than 3,000 members & 3,00,000 messages on 23.8.18) or > Efloraofindia website <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/> (with a > species database of more than 13,000 species & 3,00,000 images of which more > than 2,50,000 images are directly displayed on 31.1.20). > The whole world uses my Image Resource > <http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:J.M.Garg> of more than a thousand > species & eight thousand images of Birds, Butterflies, Plants etc. (arranged > alphabetically & place-wise). You can also use them for free as per Creative > Commons license attached with each image. > Also author of 'A Photoguide to the Birds of Kolkata & Common Birds of > India'. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "efloraofindia" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/indiantreepix/890B32E0-4D79-4452-B645-1832923C8E5E%40gmail.com.
