Thanks a lot, Ashwini ji. We are always open and change our ids and pages when we ourselves find new evidence.
On Sun, 12 Apr 2020 at 18:29, Ashwini Bhatia <[email protected]> wrote: > Thank you Mr. Garg. We can conclude for the time being that the flowers > here are *V. canescens*. > > > Warm regards, > Ashwini > > > On 12-Apr-2020, at 1:58 PM, J.M. Garg <[email protected]> wrote: > > Hi, Ashwini ji. > I think style matches with the illustration. Ovary is also hairy. > If we may examine hundreds of specimens, we may find little variation here > and there in most of the characters. > All hundreds of specimens can not be put in an image, only a > representative images can be made. Same is for the description. > As far as style of Viola pilosa > <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/species/m---z/v/violaceae/viola/viola-pilosa> > is > concerned, we have not seen the close up as you have shown for the other > species. > > > > On Sun, 12 Apr 2020 at 13:10, Ashwini Bhatia <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Sending here a combined image for reference and comparison. >> >> Thanks. >> Ashwini >> >> On Sun, 12 Apr 2020 at 13:03, Ashwini Bhatia <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> Dear Mr. Garg, >>> I agree with you that if we are certain about the flowers on our website >>> here >>> <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/species/m---z/v/violaceae/viola/viola-pilosa> >>> being *Viola pilosa*, then as certainly the flowers from Dharamshala >>> are not *V. pilosa*. As the images below show, they have a three-lobed >>> stigma and the pointed lip. >>> >>> >>> https://08511630493324166816.googlegroups.com/attach/18709915a1a38/_DSC0732%20-%20Copy.JPG?part=0.3&view=1&vt=ANaJVrHtj7ZHsf69djLbP1FCOPxM2mjOS-k4-1BGLdC92xV0dz2p5eiPZpbhRnyxjj5OGCfw1gPFLC5YUga35lktvq0Cs9QL9BeT_Y4y4YwJqF-QdnCDEBw >>> >>> https://08511630493324166816.googlegroups.com/attach/2f0eca70ef548d1e/ID.jpg?part=0.1&view=1&vt=ANaJVrHOJ5wqfYQZIWIRiwBTCrUsRrn21uwlgV_vAwPX0ZUnlZC05Ue92Ojidg7HhNiOnPsPuZ8hx9EuP4n30fgYYnDOuATzm_TJgcd8alVmOV54DAtrrCI >>> >>> These should be the defining characters then. But that will also prove >>> that the illustration provided by Santosh Agarwal ji is not reliable and >>> neither is the description in FOP or FOC for that matter. The older >>> literature such as *Flora Simlensis* and *Flowers of the Himalaya* both >>> win here. >>> >>> Tabish ji has already included a 3-lobed stigma in his description on >>> FOI, which stand correct. >>> >>> So if FOC, FOP and the illustration of styles cannot be relied upon, how >>> will we file flowers from Dharamshala under *V. canescens*? >>> >>> Thank you. >>> Ashwini >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, 12 Apr 2020 at 12:03, J.M. Garg <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> Attaching a plate provided by Santosh Agarwal ji in Viola >>>> confusa?/ABMAR21 >>>> <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/indiantreepix/v3iEgrK7nOU> >>>> Style is more closer to Viola canescens >>>> <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/species/m---z/v/violaceae/viola/viola-canescens> >>>> rather >>>> than Viola pilosa >>>> <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/species/m---z/v/violaceae/viola/viola-pilosa> >>>> >>>> I feel we have to rely more on Flora of Pakistan >>>> <http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=5&taxon_id=134607> as >>>> both the species are listed here (and found in the area) and this issue >>>> must have been deliberated for long times and keys framed accordingly due >>>> to confusing nature between the two. >>>> >>>> *Leaves* are clearly acuminate in Viola pilosa >>>> <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/species/m---z/v/violaceae/viola/viola-pilosa> >>>> and >>>> not so in Viola canescens >>>> <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/species/m---z/v/violaceae/viola/viola-canescens> >>>> There is a clear difference as to how *style* is visible in the >>>> live flowers in both species at Viola canescens >>>> <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/species/m---z/v/violaceae/viola/viola-canescens> >>>> and Viola pilosa >>>> <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/species/m---z/v/violaceae/viola/viola-pilosa> >>>> One more point is the *nature of the lower petal *being mostly acute >>>> or acuminate in Viola pilosa >>>> <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/species/m---z/v/violaceae/viola/viola-pilosa> >>>> and >>>> obtuse in Viola canescens >>>> <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/species/m---z/v/violaceae/viola/viola-canescens> >>>> >>>> >>>> I think the above three point combined together should clinch the id in >>>> most of the cases. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, 12 Apr 2020 at 11:14, Ashwini Bhatia <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Thank you Mr. Garg and Tabish ji for your comments. We can all >>>>> appreciate the difficulties involved. >>>>> >>>>> The issue boils down to which source(s) we trust the most in our >>>>> identifications. Especially when the sources we usually refer to do not >>>>> agree with each other. >>>>> >>>>> When I began looking at the two viola species in Dharamshala in 2015, >>>>> the first characteristic I looked at was the stipules. I was told that the >>>>> fringed ones meant canescens and toothed ones pilosa. Now I have learnt >>>>> that these can be variable. FOC describes them for V. Pilosa as "stipules >>>>> mostly free, brown or green, lanceolate, margin long or shortly >>>>> fimbriate-dentate, apex long acuminate”. >>>>> >>>>> Flora of China does not include *V. c**anescens* in its list of viola >>>>> species in China but makes a brief comment under *V. pilosa* >>>>> description "In FRPS (51: 90. 1991), the name *Viola canescens* Wallich >>>>> was misapplied to this species.” FRPS is Latin for Flora of China. This is >>>>> not elaborated further so we will not know if the author(s) does not >>>>> approve of *V. canescens* as a valid species or is merely suggesting >>>>> that these features were earlier confused with *V. canescens*. >>>>> >>>>> Next, I learnt that to know violas, one has to look at the >>>>> style/stigma. So I did my best to look at the style closely. I found out >>>>> that the *style is club-shaped, gradually thickening upwards >>>>> culminating in a perforated stigma placed on the side*. >>>>> This matches the description given by FOC for *V. pilosa*. But Flora >>>>> of Pakistan gives the stigma for *V. canescens* as club-shaped but does >>>>> not elaborate more. >>>>> FOP does not give the shape of the stigma for *V. pilosa* but tells >>>>> us that it is beaked. The perforation-like stigma, can be seen like a beak >>>>> from an angle but I am not sure if I want to base my identification on a >>>>> feature that is open to interpretation. >>>>> >>>>> * Flora Simlensis *says that *V. canescens* has a truncated stigma >>>>> and not beaked, and describes stigma for *V. serpens* (synonym of *V. >>>>> pilosa*) as being three-lobed and beaked. The stigma on our plant may >>>>> look truncated to the naked eye but under a modest magnification, the >>>>> shape >>>>> becomes obvious. >>>>> >>>>> Flowers of the Himalaya lists *V. pilosa* as having a 3-lobed stigma >>>>> with a beak too but does not comment on the stigma of *V. canescens*. >>>>> >>>>> So neither the stipules nor the style/stigma shapes are agreed upon in >>>>> the literature. FOC pdf was compiled in 2007 and could be the most recent >>>>> study we have on the genus in China/Asia. I am not sure how often the >>>>> Flora >>>>> of Pakistan is updated but the books I have consulted are all much older >>>>> than 2007. But since the study does not include *V. canescens* at >>>>> all, we are still left wondering. >>>>> >>>>> Our species matches the descriptions broadly for *V. pilosa* in FOC >>>>> and *V. canescens* in FOP. How do we move forward? >>>>> >>>>> Thank you and regards, >>>>> Ashwini >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 12-Apr-2020, at 9:47 AM, Tabish <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> This is from FOC description of Viola pilosa: >>>>> "styles clavate, base slightly geniculate, gradually thickened >>>>> upward; stigmas ± flat, not margined, very inconspicuously short beaked in >>>>> front, with smaller stigma hole at tip of beak." >>>>> best wishes >>>>> Tabish >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, 12 Apr, 2020, 8:38 AM J.M. Garg, <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> As both species are quite confusing, these key features are not >>>>>> visible in images of Viola canescens at FOI >>>>>> <http://www.flowersofindia.net/catalog/slides/Himalayan%20White%20Violet.html> >>>>>> . >>>>>> I have doubts about correctness of these images in FOI. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, 12 Apr 2020 at 08:27, J.M. Garg <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Pl. see Viola canescens >>>>>>> <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/species/m---z/v/violaceae/viola/viola-canescens>. >>>>>>> I think style is the best clue. *Here style is club shaped. Leaves >>>>>>> are also not acuminate.* >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As per keys in Flora of Pakistan >>>>>>> <http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=5&taxon_id=134607>: >>>>>>> 13 (12) >>>>>>> <http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=5&taxon_id=134607#KEY-1-12> >>>>>>> Stigma >>>>>>> beaked. Ovary glabrous (14) >>>>>>> <http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=5&taxon_id=134607#KEY-1-14> >>>>>>> + Stigma club shaped. Ovary hairy 2 Viola canescens >>>>>>> <http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=5&taxon_id=200014339> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 14 (13) >>>>>>> <http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=5&taxon_id=134607#KEY-1-13> >>>>>>> Leaves >>>>>>> acuminate. Sepals lanceolate, acute, ciliate-dentate 3 Viola >>>>>>> pilosa >>>>>>> <http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=5&taxon_id=200014403> >>>>>>> + Leaves obtuse. Sepals ovate, obtuse, entire 1 Viola odorata >>>>>>> <http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=5&taxon_id=200014395> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sat, 11 Apr 2020 at 23:36, Tabish <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This type of Viola, with all sepals equal and with ciliate margins, >>>>>>>> I would think it is >>>>>>>> *Viola pilosa. * >>>>>>>> * Tabish* >>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>> <http://www.flowersofindia.net/>www.flowersofindia.net >>>>>>>> The waterhole of flower lovers >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sat, Apr 11, 2020 at 6:24 PM Ashwini Bhatia < >>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> This is the second species from Dharamshala which is still >>>>>>>>> confusing. The flowers can be from pure white to deep mauve and vary >>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>> size from 1.5 to 2.2cm. Most are wider than long. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The petals are of different shapes and sizes. The two uppermost >>>>>>>>> are the broadest at ca. 7mm, the laterals are roughly 5mm wide (both >>>>>>>>> about >>>>>>>>> 13mm long). The lowest petal (or the uppermost if you consider >>>>>>>>> resupination, but for clarity I am using the lowest) is the narrowest >>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>> 4mm and excluding the spur about 10mm long. The spur is cylindrical, >>>>>>>>> white, >>>>>>>>> and can be hooked or not and is 3mm long. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The leaves are slightly paler underneath, hairy on both surfaces >>>>>>>>> with scattered white hairs. The petiole is hairy and the stipules are >>>>>>>>> laciniate (with long hair-like projections on both long edges). >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The pedicel projects beyond the leaves mostly and is covered on >>>>>>>>> white hairs too. Sepals are lanceolate, equal and have hairy margins. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The anthers are pale yellow, two with nectaries projecting into >>>>>>>>> the spur. The nectaries are yellow-green, hairy and about 2mm long. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The ovary is hairy at the top. The stigma appears truncated at >>>>>>>>> lower magnification but up-close reveals a crater like perforation at >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> top of the club-shaped style. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The seeds are yellow with dark purple warts on their surface. >>>>>>>>> Elaiosomes are prominent. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Depending on how we interpret this data, we could either believe >>>>>>>>> this to be *Viola pilosa* or *Viola canescens*. All comments are >>>>>>>>> welcome. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>>>>> Ashwini >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> All photos taken between 1750 and 2200m in Dharamshala, Himachal >>>>>>>>> Pradesh. the flowering season is usually late February to June. A few >>>>>>>>> plants can be found well into autumn too. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> With regards, >>>>>>> J.M.Garg >>>>>>> 'Creating awareness of Indian Flora & Fauna' >>>>>>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jmgarg1> >>>>>>> Winner of Wipro-NFS Sparrow Awards 2014 for efloraofindia >>>>>>> <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/award-for-efloraofindia> >>>>>>> . >>>>>>> For identification, learning, discussion & documentation of Indian >>>>>>> Flora, please visit/ join our Efloraofindia Google e-group >>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/indiantreepix> (largest in >>>>>>> the world- more than 3,000 members & 3,00,000 messages on 23.8.18) or >>>>>>> Efloraofindia website >>>>>>> <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/> (with a species >>>>>>> database of more than 13,000 species & 3,00,000 images of which more >>>>>>> than >>>>>>> 2,50,000 images are directly displayed on 31.1.20). >>>>>>> The whole world uses my Image Resource >>>>>>> <http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:J.M.Garg> of more than >>>>>>> a thousand species & eight thousand images of Birds, Butterflies, Plants >>>>>>> etc. (arranged alphabetically & place-wise). You can also use them for >>>>>>> free >>>>>>> as per Creative Commons license attached with each image. >>>>>>> Also author of 'A Photoguide to the Birds of Kolkata & Common Birds >>>>>>> of India'. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> With regards, >>>>>> J.M.Garg >>>>>> 'Creating awareness of Indian Flora & Fauna' >>>>>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jmgarg1> >>>>>> Winner of Wipro-NFS Sparrow Awards 2014 for efloraofindia >>>>>> <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/award-for-efloraofindia> >>>>>> . >>>>>> For identification, learning, discussion & documentation of Indian >>>>>> Flora, please visit/ join our Efloraofindia Google e-group >>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/indiantreepix> (largest in >>>>>> the world- more than 3,000 members & 3,00,000 messages on 23.8.18) or >>>>>> Efloraofindia website <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/> >>>>>> (with a species database of more than 13,000 species & 3,00,000 >>>>>> images of which more than 2,50,000 images are directly displayed on >>>>>> 31.1.20). >>>>>> The whole world uses my Image Resource >>>>>> <http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:J.M.Garg> of more than a >>>>>> thousand species & eight thousand images of Birds, Butterflies, Plants >>>>>> etc. >>>>>> (arranged alphabetically & place-wise). You can also use them for free as >>>>>> per Creative Commons license attached with each image. >>>>>> Also author of 'A Photoguide to the Birds of Kolkata & Common Birds >>>>>> of India'. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> With regards, >>>> J.M.Garg >>>> 'Creating awareness of Indian Flora & Fauna' >>>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jmgarg1> >>>> Winner of Wipro-NFS Sparrow Awards 2014 for efloraofindia >>>> <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/award-for-efloraofindia>. >>>> For identification, learning, discussion & documentation of Indian >>>> Flora, please visit/ join our Efloraofindia Google e-group >>>> <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/indiantreepix> (largest in >>>> the world- more than 3,000 members & 3,00,000 messages on 23.8.18) or >>>> Efloraofindia >>>> website <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/> (with a species >>>> database of more than 13,000 species & 3,00,000 images of which more than >>>> 2,50,000 images are directly displayed on 31.1.20). >>>> The whole world uses my Image Resource >>>> <http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:J.M.Garg> of more than a >>>> thousand species & eight thousand images of Birds, Butterflies, Plants etc. >>>> (arranged alphabetically & place-wise). You can also use them for free as >>>> per Creative Commons license attached with each image. >>>> Also author of 'A Photoguide to the Birds of Kolkata & Common Birds of >>>> India'. >>>> >>> > > -- > With regards, > J.M.Garg > 'Creating awareness of Indian Flora & Fauna' > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jmgarg1> > Winner of Wipro-NFS Sparrow Awards 2014 for efloraofindia > <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/award-for-efloraofindia>. > For identification, learning, discussion & documentation of Indian Flora, > please visit/ join our Efloraofindia Google e-group > <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/indiantreepix> (largest in the > world- more than 3,000 members & 3,00,000 messages on 23.8.18) or > Efloraofindia > website <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/> (with a species > database of more than 13,000 species & 3,00,000 images of which more than > 2,50,000 images are directly displayed on 31.1.20). > The whole world uses my Image Resource > <http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:J.M.Garg> of more than a > thousand species & eight thousand images of Birds, Butterflies, Plants etc. > (arranged alphabetically & place-wise). You can also use them for free as > per Creative Commons license attached with each image. > Also author of 'A Photoguide to the Birds of Kolkata & Common Birds of > India'. > > > -- With regards, J.M.Garg 'Creating awareness of Indian Flora & Fauna' <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jmgarg1> Winner of Wipro-NFS Sparrow Awards 2014 for efloraofindia <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/award-for-efloraofindia>. For identification, learning, discussion & documentation of Indian Flora, please visit/ join our Efloraofindia Google e-group <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/indiantreepix> (largest in the world- more than 3,000 members & 3,00,000 messages on 23.8.18) or Efloraofindia website <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/> (with a species database of more than 13,000 species & 3,00,000 images of which more than 2,50,000 images are directly displayed on 31.1.20). The whole world uses my Image Resource <http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:J.M.Garg> of more than a thousand species & eight thousand images of Birds, Butterflies, Plants etc. (arranged alphabetically & place-wise). You can also use them for free as per Creative Commons license attached with each image. Also author of 'A Photoguide to the Birds of Kolkata & Common Birds of India'. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "efloraofindia" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/indiantreepix/CA%2BiuSFD3sWpAT_fgaXu29skZgBT7QWFV51_779L0BU3GY9Ud%2BA%40mail.gmail.com.
