In fact all this new learning has been because of your persistence and super follow up presentations.
On Sun, 12 Apr 2020 at 20:51, J.M. Garg <[email protected]> wrote: > Thanks a lot, Ashwini ji. > We are always open and change our ids and pages when we ourselves find new > evidence. > > On Sun, 12 Apr 2020 at 18:29, Ashwini Bhatia <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Thank you Mr. Garg. We can conclude for the time being that the flowers >> here are *V. canescens*. >> >> >> Warm regards, >> Ashwini >> >> >> On 12-Apr-2020, at 1:58 PM, J.M. Garg <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> Hi, Ashwini ji. >> I think style matches with the illustration. Ovary is also hairy. >> If we may examine hundreds of specimens, we may find little variation >> here and there in most of the characters. >> All hundreds of specimens can not be put in an image, only a >> representative images can be made. Same is for the description. >> As far as style of Viola pilosa >> <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/species/m---z/v/violaceae/viola/viola-pilosa> >> is >> concerned, we have not seen the close up as you have shown for the other >> species. >> >> >> >> On Sun, 12 Apr 2020 at 13:10, Ashwini Bhatia <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> Sending here a combined image for reference and comparison. >>> >>> Thanks. >>> Ashwini >>> >>> On Sun, 12 Apr 2020 at 13:03, Ashwini Bhatia <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Dear Mr. Garg, >>>> I agree with you that if we are certain about the flowers on our website >>>> here >>>> <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/species/m---z/v/violaceae/viola/viola-pilosa> >>>> being *Viola pilosa*, then as certainly the flowers from Dharamshala >>>> are not *V. pilosa*. As the images below show, they have a three-lobed >>>> stigma and the pointed lip. >>>> >>>> >>>> https://08511630493324166816.googlegroups.com/attach/18709915a1a38/_DSC0732%20-%20Copy.JPG?part=0.3&view=1&vt=ANaJVrHtj7ZHsf69djLbP1FCOPxM2mjOS-k4-1BGLdC92xV0dz2p5eiPZpbhRnyxjj5OGCfw1gPFLC5YUga35lktvq0Cs9QL9BeT_Y4y4YwJqF-QdnCDEBw >>>> >>>> https://08511630493324166816.googlegroups.com/attach/2f0eca70ef548d1e/ID.jpg?part=0.1&view=1&vt=ANaJVrHOJ5wqfYQZIWIRiwBTCrUsRrn21uwlgV_vAwPX0ZUnlZC05Ue92Ojidg7HhNiOnPsPuZ8hx9EuP4n30fgYYnDOuATzm_TJgcd8alVmOV54DAtrrCI >>>> >>>> These should be the defining characters then. But that will also prove >>>> that the illustration provided by Santosh Agarwal ji is not reliable and >>>> neither is the description in FOP or FOC for that matter. The older >>>> literature such as *Flora Simlensis* and *Flowers of the Himalaya* both >>>> win here. >>>> >>>> Tabish ji has already included a 3-lobed stigma in his description on >>>> FOI, which stand correct. >>>> >>>> So if FOC, FOP and the illustration of styles cannot be relied upon, >>>> how will we file flowers from Dharamshala under *V. canescens*? >>>> >>>> Thank you. >>>> Ashwini >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, 12 Apr 2020 at 12:03, J.M. Garg <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Attaching a plate provided by Santosh Agarwal ji in Viola >>>>> confusa?/ABMAR21 >>>>> <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/indiantreepix/v3iEgrK7nOU> >>>>> Style is more closer to Viola canescens >>>>> <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/species/m---z/v/violaceae/viola/viola-canescens> >>>>> rather >>>>> than Viola pilosa >>>>> <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/species/m---z/v/violaceae/viola/viola-pilosa> >>>>> >>>>> I feel we have to rely more on Flora of Pakistan >>>>> <http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=5&taxon_id=134607> as >>>>> both the species are listed here (and found in the area) and this issue >>>>> must have been deliberated for long times and keys framed accordingly due >>>>> to confusing nature between the two. >>>>> >>>>> *Leaves* are clearly acuminate in Viola pilosa >>>>> <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/species/m---z/v/violaceae/viola/viola-pilosa> >>>>> and >>>>> not so in Viola canescens >>>>> <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/species/m---z/v/violaceae/viola/viola-canescens> >>>>> There is a clear difference as to how *style* is visible in the >>>>> live flowers in both species at Viola canescens >>>>> <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/species/m---z/v/violaceae/viola/viola-canescens> >>>>> and Viola pilosa >>>>> <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/species/m---z/v/violaceae/viola/viola-pilosa> >>>>> One more point is the *nature of the lower petal *being mostly acute >>>>> or acuminate in Viola pilosa >>>>> <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/species/m---z/v/violaceae/viola/viola-pilosa> >>>>> and >>>>> obtuse in Viola canescens >>>>> <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/species/m---z/v/violaceae/viola/viola-canescens> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I think the above three point combined together should clinch the id >>>>> in most of the cases. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, 12 Apr 2020 at 11:14, Ashwini Bhatia <[email protected]> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Thank you Mr. Garg and Tabish ji for your comments. We can all >>>>>> appreciate the difficulties involved. >>>>>> >>>>>> The issue boils down to which source(s) we trust the most in our >>>>>> identifications. Especially when the sources we usually refer to do not >>>>>> agree with each other. >>>>>> >>>>>> When I began looking at the two viola species in Dharamshala in 2015, >>>>>> the first characteristic I looked at was the stipules. I was told that >>>>>> the >>>>>> fringed ones meant canescens and toothed ones pilosa. Now I have learnt >>>>>> that these can be variable. FOC describes them for V. Pilosa as "stipules >>>>>> mostly free, brown or green, lanceolate, margin long or shortly >>>>>> fimbriate-dentate, apex long acuminate”. >>>>>> >>>>>> Flora of China does not include *V. c**anescens* in its list of >>>>>> viola species in China but makes a brief comment under *V. pilosa* >>>>>> description "In FRPS (51: 90. 1991), the name *Viola canescens* Wallich >>>>>> was misapplied to this species.” FRPS is Latin for Flora of China. This >>>>>> is >>>>>> not elaborated further so we will not know if the author(s) does not >>>>>> approve of *V. canescens* as a valid species or is merely suggesting >>>>>> that these features were earlier confused with *V. canescens*. >>>>>> >>>>>> Next, I learnt that to know violas, one has to look at the >>>>>> style/stigma. So I did my best to look at the style closely. I found out >>>>>> that the *style is club-shaped, gradually thickening upwards >>>>>> culminating in a perforated stigma placed on the side*. >>>>>> This matches the description given by FOC for *V. pilosa*. But Flora >>>>>> of Pakistan gives the stigma for *V. canescens* as club-shaped but does >>>>>> not elaborate more. >>>>>> FOP does not give the shape of the stigma for *V. pilosa* but tells >>>>>> us that it is beaked. The perforation-like stigma, can be seen like a >>>>>> beak >>>>>> from an angle but I am not sure if I want to base my identification on a >>>>>> feature that is open to interpretation. >>>>>> >>>>>> * Flora Simlensis *says that *V. canescens* has a truncated stigma >>>>>> and not beaked, and describes stigma for *V. serpens* (synonym of *V. >>>>>> pilosa*) as being three-lobed and beaked. The stigma on our plant >>>>>> may look truncated to the naked eye but under a modest magnification, the >>>>>> shape becomes obvious. >>>>>> >>>>>> Flowers of the Himalaya lists *V. pilosa* as having a 3-lobed stigma >>>>>> with a beak too but does not comment on the stigma of *V. canescens*. >>>>>> >>>>>> So neither the stipules nor the style/stigma shapes are agreed upon >>>>>> in the literature. FOC pdf was compiled in 2007 and could be the most >>>>>> recent study we have on the genus in China/Asia. I am not sure how often >>>>>> the Flora of Pakistan is updated but the books I have consulted are all >>>>>> much older than 2007. But since the study does not include *V. >>>>>> canescens* at all, we are still left wondering. >>>>>> >>>>>> Our species matches the descriptions broadly for *V. pilosa* in FOC >>>>>> and *V. canescens* in FOP. How do we move forward? >>>>>> >>>>>> Thank you and regards, >>>>>> Ashwini >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 12-Apr-2020, at 9:47 AM, Tabish <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> This is from FOC description of Viola pilosa: >>>>>> "styles clavate, base slightly geniculate, gradually thickened >>>>>> upward; stigmas ± flat, not margined, very inconspicuously short beaked >>>>>> in >>>>>> front, with smaller stigma hole at tip of beak." >>>>>> best wishes >>>>>> Tabish >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, 12 Apr, 2020, 8:38 AM J.M. Garg, <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> As both species are quite confusing, these key features are not >>>>>>> visible in images of Viola canescens at FOI >>>>>>> <http://www.flowersofindia.net/catalog/slides/Himalayan%20White%20Violet.html> >>>>>>> . >>>>>>> I have doubts about correctness of these images in FOI. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sun, 12 Apr 2020 at 08:27, J.M. Garg <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Pl. see Viola canescens >>>>>>>> <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/species/m---z/v/violaceae/viola/viola-canescens>. >>>>>>>> I think style is the best clue. *Here style is club shaped. Leaves >>>>>>>> are also not acuminate.* >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> As per keys in Flora of Pakistan >>>>>>>> <http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=5&taxon_id=134607> >>>>>>>> : >>>>>>>> 13 (12) >>>>>>>> <http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=5&taxon_id=134607#KEY-1-12> >>>>>>>> Stigma >>>>>>>> beaked. Ovary glabrous (14) >>>>>>>> <http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=5&taxon_id=134607#KEY-1-14> >>>>>>>> + Stigma club shaped. Ovary hairy 2 Viola canescens >>>>>>>> <http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=5&taxon_id=200014339> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 14 (13) >>>>>>>> <http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=5&taxon_id=134607#KEY-1-13> >>>>>>>> Leaves >>>>>>>> acuminate. Sepals lanceolate, acute, ciliate-dentate 3 Viola >>>>>>>> pilosa >>>>>>>> <http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=5&taxon_id=200014403> >>>>>>>> + Leaves obtuse. Sepals ovate, obtuse, entire 1 Viola odorata >>>>>>>> <http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=5&taxon_id=200014395> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sat, 11 Apr 2020 at 23:36, Tabish <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> This type of Viola, with all sepals equal and with ciliate >>>>>>>>> margins, I would think it is >>>>>>>>> *Viola pilosa. * >>>>>>>>> * Tabish* >>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>> <http://www.flowersofindia.net/>www.flowersofindia.net >>>>>>>>> The waterhole of flower lovers >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sat, Apr 11, 2020 at 6:24 PM Ashwini Bhatia < >>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> This is the second species from Dharamshala which is still >>>>>>>>>> confusing. The flowers can be from pure white to deep mauve and vary >>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>> size from 1.5 to 2.2cm. Most are wider than long. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The petals are of different shapes and sizes. The two uppermost >>>>>>>>>> are the broadest at ca. 7mm, the laterals are roughly 5mm wide (both >>>>>>>>>> about >>>>>>>>>> 13mm long). The lowest petal (or the uppermost if you consider >>>>>>>>>> resupination, but for clarity I am using the lowest) is the >>>>>>>>>> narrowest at >>>>>>>>>> 4mm and excluding the spur about 10mm long. The spur is cylindrical, >>>>>>>>>> white, >>>>>>>>>> and can be hooked or not and is 3mm long. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The leaves are slightly paler underneath, hairy on both surfaces >>>>>>>>>> with scattered white hairs. The petiole is hairy and the stipules are >>>>>>>>>> laciniate (with long hair-like projections on both long edges). >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The pedicel projects beyond the leaves mostly and is covered on >>>>>>>>>> white hairs too. Sepals are lanceolate, equal and have hairy margins. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The anthers are pale yellow, two with nectaries projecting into >>>>>>>>>> the spur. The nectaries are yellow-green, hairy and about 2mm long. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The ovary is hairy at the top. The stigma appears truncated at >>>>>>>>>> lower magnification but up-close reveals a crater like perforation >>>>>>>>>> at the >>>>>>>>>> top of the club-shaped style. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The seeds are yellow with dark purple warts on their surface. >>>>>>>>>> Elaiosomes are prominent. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Depending on how we interpret this data, we could either believe >>>>>>>>>> this to be *Viola pilosa* or *Viola canescens*. All comments are >>>>>>>>>> welcome. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>>>>>> Ashwini >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> All photos taken between 1750 and 2200m in Dharamshala, Himachal >>>>>>>>>> Pradesh. the flowering season is usually late February to June. A few >>>>>>>>>> plants can be found well into autumn too. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> With regards, >>>>>>>> J.M.Garg >>>>>>>> 'Creating awareness of Indian Flora & Fauna' >>>>>>>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jmgarg1> >>>>>>>> Winner of Wipro-NFS Sparrow Awards 2014 for efloraofindia >>>>>>>> <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/award-for-efloraofindia> >>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>> For identification, learning, discussion & documentation of Indian >>>>>>>> Flora, please visit/ join our Efloraofindia Google e-group >>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/indiantreepix> (largest >>>>>>>> in the world- more than 3,000 members & 3,00,000 messages on 23.8.18) >>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>> Efloraofindia website >>>>>>>> <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/> (with a species >>>>>>>> database of more than 13,000 species & 3,00,000 images of which more >>>>>>>> than >>>>>>>> 2,50,000 images are directly displayed on 31.1.20). >>>>>>>> The whole world uses my Image Resource >>>>>>>> <http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:J.M.Garg> of more than >>>>>>>> a thousand species & eight thousand images of Birds, Butterflies, >>>>>>>> Plants >>>>>>>> etc. (arranged alphabetically & place-wise). You can also use them for >>>>>>>> free >>>>>>>> as per Creative Commons license attached with each image. >>>>>>>> Also author of 'A Photoguide to the Birds of Kolkata & Common Birds >>>>>>>> of India'. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> With regards, >>>>>>> J.M.Garg >>>>>>> 'Creating awareness of Indian Flora & Fauna' >>>>>>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jmgarg1> >>>>>>> Winner of Wipro-NFS Sparrow Awards 2014 for efloraofindia >>>>>>> <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/award-for-efloraofindia> >>>>>>> . >>>>>>> For identification, learning, discussion & documentation of Indian >>>>>>> Flora, please visit/ join our Efloraofindia Google e-group >>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/indiantreepix> (largest in >>>>>>> the world- more than 3,000 members & 3,00,000 messages on 23.8.18) or >>>>>>> Efloraofindia website >>>>>>> <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/> (with a species >>>>>>> database of more than 13,000 species & 3,00,000 images of which more >>>>>>> than >>>>>>> 2,50,000 images are directly displayed on 31.1.20). >>>>>>> The whole world uses my Image Resource >>>>>>> <http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:J.M.Garg> of more than >>>>>>> a thousand species & eight thousand images of Birds, Butterflies, Plants >>>>>>> etc. (arranged alphabetically & place-wise). You can also use them for >>>>>>> free >>>>>>> as per Creative Commons license attached with each image. >>>>>>> Also author of 'A Photoguide to the Birds of Kolkata & Common Birds >>>>>>> of India'. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> With regards, >>>>> J.M.Garg >>>>> 'Creating awareness of Indian Flora & Fauna' >>>>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jmgarg1> >>>>> Winner of Wipro-NFS Sparrow Awards 2014 for efloraofindia >>>>> <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/award-for-efloraofindia> >>>>> . >>>>> For identification, learning, discussion & documentation of Indian >>>>> Flora, please visit/ join our Efloraofindia Google e-group >>>>> <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/indiantreepix> (largest in >>>>> the world- more than 3,000 members & 3,00,000 messages on 23.8.18) or >>>>> Efloraofindia >>>>> website <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/> (with a >>>>> species database of more than 13,000 species & 3,00,000 images of which >>>>> more than 2,50,000 images are directly displayed on 31.1.20). >>>>> The whole world uses my Image Resource >>>>> <http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:J.M.Garg> of more than a >>>>> thousand species & eight thousand images of Birds, Butterflies, Plants >>>>> etc. >>>>> (arranged alphabetically & place-wise). You can also use them for free as >>>>> per Creative Commons license attached with each image. >>>>> Also author of 'A Photoguide to the Birds of Kolkata & Common Birds of >>>>> India'. >>>>> >>>> >> >> -- >> With regards, >> J.M.Garg >> 'Creating awareness of Indian Flora & Fauna' >> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jmgarg1> >> Winner of Wipro-NFS Sparrow Awards 2014 for efloraofindia >> <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/award-for-efloraofindia>. >> For identification, learning, discussion & documentation of Indian Flora, >> please visit/ join our Efloraofindia Google e-group >> <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/indiantreepix> (largest in the >> world- more than 3,000 members & 3,00,000 messages on 23.8.18) or >> Efloraofindia >> website <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/> (with a species >> database of more than 13,000 species & 3,00,000 images of which more than >> 2,50,000 images are directly displayed on 31.1.20). >> The whole world uses my Image Resource >> <http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:J.M.Garg> of more than a >> thousand species & eight thousand images of Birds, Butterflies, Plants etc. >> (arranged alphabetically & place-wise). You can also use them for free as >> per Creative Commons license attached with each image. >> Also author of 'A Photoguide to the Birds of Kolkata & Common Birds of >> India'. >> >> >> > > -- > With regards, > J.M.Garg > > 'Creating awareness of Indian Flora & Fauna' > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jmgarg1> > > Winner of Wipro-NFS Sparrow Awards 2014 for efloraofindia > <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/award-for-efloraofindia>. > > For identification, learning, discussion & documentation of Indian Flora, > please visit/ join our Efloraofindia Google e-group > <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/indiantreepix> (largest in the > world- more than 3,000 members & 3,00,000 messages on 23.8.18) or > Efloraofindia > website <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/> (with a species > database of more than 13,000 species & 3,00,000 images of which more than > 2,50,000 images are directly displayed on 31.1.20). > > The whole world uses my Image Resource > <http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:J.M.Garg> of more than a > thousand species & eight thousand images of Birds, Butterflies, Plants etc. > (arranged alphabetically & place-wise). You can also use them for free as > per Creative Commons license attached with each image. > > Also author of 'A Photoguide to the Birds of Kolkata & Common Birds of > India'. > -- With regards, J.M.Garg 'Creating awareness of Indian Flora & Fauna' <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jmgarg1> Winner of Wipro-NFS Sparrow Awards 2014 for efloraofindia <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/award-for-efloraofindia>. For identification, learning, discussion & documentation of Indian Flora, please visit/ join our Efloraofindia Google e-group <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/indiantreepix> (largest in the world- more than 3,000 members & 3,00,000 messages on 23.8.18) or Efloraofindia website <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/> (with a species database of more than 13,000 species & 3,00,000 images of which more than 2,50,000 images are directly displayed on 31.1.20). The whole world uses my Image Resource <http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:J.M.Garg> of more than a thousand species & eight thousand images of Birds, Butterflies, Plants etc. (arranged alphabetically & place-wise). You can also use them for free as per Creative Commons license attached with each image. Also author of 'A Photoguide to the Birds of Kolkata & Common Birds of India'. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "efloraofindia" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/indiantreepix/CA%2BiuSFBq4Qf_9cUo4FM%3Dpjw6qgi_hTL0-2xTKKAH%2BeGusi1QLA%40mail.gmail.com.
