On Tue, Sep 13, 2011 at 9:27 PM, ushadi Micromini <[email protected]> wrote: > Yes Yadji ji: good questions are always welcome...
> but angry outbursts must be avoided... because often they are insulting and > counter productive...esp when such forums are essentially time and word > limited... conversations are sort of in shorthand.. where we only know > each other thru 2 or 3 sentences that we write in the threads...that's when > great care needs to be exerted in expressing oneself... > we all make faux pas ..or bigger mistakes ... but should not be insulting or > angry outbursts... its also a question of style of expression... here in > this case end result turned out good because of forbearance of Gurucharanji > and Gargji. and some other moderators... perhaps you too... > Gurucharanji is a teacher thru and thru... he would not let go of teaching > and turn his back on a question... even when I think he felt hurt... and > Gargji who kept his cool and helped me stay put... > Thanks for your help and the above story... > Usha di On Sep 13, 8:36 pm, Yazdy Palia <[email protected]> wrote: > Friends, > This morning as I went through the thread, I was reminded of so many > encounters with my ex employer (my uncle, also a Palia, who was the > pioneer of Asbestos textiles in India). He would create so much > confusion and give us all hell. At the end of it, the matter would > become so clear, none of us would ever forget what we had learned at > the time. Not that anyone here had created confusion, just reminded me > of those days. > Having said that, I think a lot of us could take a little more care, > communication then becomes such a pleasure. Not that the interactions > were not interesting. > During an interaction between a French and an American, the American > stated jokingly, Oh! the French are nothing but hot air. The French > replied, "My friend, your automobile wheels are full of air too, how > much more comfortable it makes your travel". > Regards > Yazdy. > > On Tue, Sep 13, 2011 at 6:49 PM, Gurcharan Singh <[email protected]> wrote: > > Yes Ushadi > > It is bad practice to do self praise, but I was going to write to Garg ji to > > put this thread prominently on our group, for reasons more than one and it > > also proves the statement I once made about our group "eForum of Indian > > Taxonomic Research". Many things I learnt myself while trying to go to the > > bottom of the fact that no one cites the name Kosteletzkya vitifolia, > > whereas Kosteletzkya is a well recognised genus. Thanks ultimately I was > > able to dig out the cause. > > -- > > Dr. Gurcharan Singh > > Retired Associate Professor > > SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 > > Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. > > Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 > >http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ > > > On Tue, Sep 13, 2011 at 5:00 PM, ushadi Micromini > > <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> Gurucharanji: if HS agrees with you this lesson would stop... > > >> I sincerely wish HS a great thanks , because his questions that now we all > >> are so much more enriched about several points, not the least of which is > >> of > >> Hibiscus vs Kostlezyka .. > > >> not that I wish for any anger/outbursts , but questions, honest > >> scientific questions are good... > >> and your answers are so thorough that they will teach non botanists > >> equally... > > >> thanks again... I will bookmark this thread for all the valuable data it > >> contains... > > >> Usha di > >> ======= > > >> On Tue, Sep 13, 2011 at 12:19 PM, Gurcharan Singh <[email protected]> > >> wrote: > > >>> Dear H S > >>> I think that was the fault. They ignored single seed diagnosis, although > >>> Kosteletzkya has strongly angular capsules: > >>> Please read this on page 5 of this important thesis: > >>>http://mars.gmu.edu:8080/bitstream/1920/6003/1/Alexander_2010_Thesis.pdf > >>> "Plants in the genus Kosteletzkya resemble members of the genus Hibiscus > >>> in floral > >>> morphology but differ mainly in that each carpel contains a single seed > >>> as opposed to > >>> multiple seeds (Bayer and Kubitzki, 2003)." > >>> Please read this also: > >>>http://www.malvaceae.info/Genera/Hibiscus/sections.php > >>> "Genus Kosteletzkya (section Pentaspermum) (image gallery) > >>> approaches Fioria in possessing winged or less commonly angled fruits, and > >>> approaches Malvavisceae in the cells of the fruit being single-seeded. It > >>> consists of 17 species [5], mostly from tropical America, and to a lesser > >>> extent, Africa, but also with species in the eastern USA, southern Europe, > >>> south west Asia, and Malesia. However some species of Kosteletzkya fall > >>> into > >>> the 8th group" > >>> P S: since all species of Fioria are now merged back to Hibiscus, shows > >>> that angled or winged fruit is not singly a distinguishing character of > >>> Kosteletzkya, whereas the single seeded character is! > >>>http://www.malvaceae.info/Literature/Sprague/Malvaceae.html > >>> TRIBE IV. HIBISCEÆ [21], Endl. (excl. Malvaviscus). – Carpels as many as > >>> the stigmas, 3–10 (usually 5), combined into a loculicidal few–many-seeded > >>> (or rarely indehiscent) capsule; the dissepiments borne on the middle of > >>> the > >>> valves. Column antheriferous for a great part of its length, naked and > >>> 5-toothed at the apex. > > >>> Cells of the ovary uniovulate. Involucel polyphyllous. > > >>> KOSTELETZKYA. (Plate 132.) Capsule depressed, 5-celled, 5-seeded. > >>> DECASCHISTIA, Wight & Arn. India [22]. > > >>> Cells of the ovary 2–many ovulate. Involucel 3–polyphyllous. > > >>> THESPESIA, Correa. Tropical Asia and Oceanica. > >>> SERRÆA, Cav. (Senra, DC. [23]) Arabia and Egypt. > >>> FUGOSIA [24], Juss. Tropical America and Africa.d > >>> ABELMOSCHUS, Medik. Tropical Asia and America [25]. > >>> HIBISCUS. (Plate 133.) Involucel polyphyllous. Calyx persistent, not > >>> spathaceous. Capsule 5-celled, 5-valved; the cells few–many-seeded. > >>> GOSSYPIUM, Linn. Tropical Asia and Africa [26]. > > >>> Cells of the ovary 4–6 ovulate. Involucel minute, or none [27]. > > >>> LAGUNARIA, Don. Norfolk Island [28]. > >>> LAGUNEA [29], Cav. Tropical Asia and Africa. > > >>> I think above information should convince you. > > >>> -- > >>> Dr. Gurcharan Singh > >>> Retired Associate Professor > >>> SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 > >>> Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. > >>> Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 > >>>http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ > > >>> On Tue, Sep 13, 2011 at 11:21 AM, H S <[email protected]> wrote: > > >>>> Thank you Sirji for explaination.. > > >>>> but what about Dr. Almeida and N. Patil, explaination in paper about > >>>> Kosteletzkya is restricted to angular capsule and not to single seed.. > >>>> please if you can clear my doubt. > >>>> regards. > > >>>> On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 9:49 PM, Dinesh Valke <[email protected]> > >>>> wrote: > > >>>>> ... salutes Gurcharan ji for taking efforts to dig into papers and at > >>>>> the reputed sites ... many thanks for the clear analysis. > >>>>> Regards. > >>>>> Dinesh > > >>>>> On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 9:04 PM, Giby Kuriakose > >>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: > > >>>>>> Very interesting and authentic explanation to the discussion. Thank > >>>>>> you sir for the same. > >>>>>> This would be the simplest of such kind of explanations that I ever > >>>>>> come across. > >>>>>> I think this would clears the doubt. I never knew that there were such > >>>>>> a complicated matter behind this species. > >>>>>> This is a wonderful learning as well. > > >>>>>> Regards > >>>>>> Giby > > >>>>>> On 12 September 2011 16:31, Gurcharan Singh <[email protected]> > >>>>>> wrote: > > >>>>>>> Let us understand some basics > >>>>>>> Although the name of Hibiscus vitifolius is clearly mentioned in the > >>>>>>> paper, it does not fulfill the basic requirement (for publications > >>>>>>> after > >>>>>>> 1955 as informed by Tanay). The basionym on which the combination is > >>>>>>> based > >>>>>>> should be written immediately after the combination suggested, which > >>>>>>> the > >>>>>>> authors have not done. Pl. see the IPNI record: > >>>>>>>http://www.ipni.org/ipni/idPlantNameSearch.do?id=991056-1 > >>>>>>> Please note another interesting thing (although it should not > >>>>>>> disqualify the combination). While making the combination authors > >>>>>>> should > >>>>>>> have changed vitifolius to vitifolia, which unfortunately they have > >>>>>>> not > >>>>>>> done. > >>>>>>> Even if we think that combination is valid, let us understand that > >>>>>>> this combination was made in 1996, and let us see how recent > >>>>>>> publications > >>>>>>> treat this taxon: > > >>>>>>>http://www.ville-ge.ch/musinfo/bd/cjb/africa/details.php?langue=an&id... > >>>>>>> status 2009 > >>>>>>>http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=HIVI > >>>>>>> based on GRIN > >>>>>>> status > >>>>>>> 9/5/2011 > >>>>>>>http://www.jstor.org/pss/4120636 > >>>>>>> Kew Bull., > >>>>>>> 2003 > >>>>>>>http://www.eol.org/pages/584775/names > >>>>>>> EOL Annual > >>>>>>> Checklist > >>>>>>> 2010 > > >>>>>>>http://www.mozambiqueflora.com/speciesdata/species.php?species_id=139680 > >>>>>>> 4/7/2011 > >>>>>>>http://www.flickr.com/photos/photosofsrilanka/4348195473/ > >>>>>>> Jan 2010 > >>>>>>>http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/ProductDetail.do? > >>>>>>> D7=0&N5=SEARCH_CONCAT_PNO|BRAND_KEY&N4=G1036|SIGMA&N25=0&QS=ON&F=SPEC > >>>>>>> 2011 > >>>>>>> It would be interesting to know any recent publication which > >>>>>>> recognises Kosteletzkya vitifolia as accepted name. > >>>>>>> Interesting Hibiscus vitifolius is an African plant described in most > >>>>>>> African and South American Floras. It is also true that genus > >>>>>>> Kosteletzkya > >>>>>>> is recognised as disctinct. The million dollar question is > >>>>>>> if Kosteletzkya > >>>>>>> vitifolia combination published in BNHS is not valid and species > >>>>>>> really > >>>>>>> belongs to this genus Kostelzkya, why no author has published a valid > >>>>>>> combination (or name) for this so common a plant, which many had > >>>>>>> published > >>>>>>> as Fioria vitifolia (now merged back into Hibiscus). > >>>>>>> My simple conclusion is that perhaps Almeida and Patil were wrong in > >>>>>>> assigning Hibiscus vitifolia L. to genus Kostelzkya. The genus is > >>>>>>> separated > >>>>>>> from Hibiscus in having single ovule (and seed) in each locule, > >>>>>>> whereas > >>>>>>> Hibiscus vitifolius has 2-4 per locule as a rule. I think here lies > >>>>>>> the > >>>>>>> answer. This leaves the validity of combination made by Almeida and > >>>>>>> Patil > >>>>>>> without much meaning. > > >>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>> Dr. Gurcharan Singh > >>>>>>> Retired Associate Professor > >>>>>>> SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 > >>>>>>> Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. > >>>>>>> Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 > > ... > > read more »
