Let us understand some basics Although the name of Hibiscus vitifolius is clearly mentioned in the paper, it does not fulfill the basic requirement (for publications after 1955 as informed by Tanay). The basionym on which the combination is based should be written immediately after the combination suggested, which the authors have not done. Pl. see the IPNI record:
http://www.ipni.org/ipni/idPlantNameSearch.do?id=991056-1 Please note another interesting thing (although it should not disqualify the combination). While making the combination authors should have changed vitifolius to vitifolia, which unfortunately they have not done. Even if we think that combination is valid, let us understand that this combination was made in 1996, and let us see how recent publications treat this taxon: http://www.ville-ge.ch/musinfo/bd/cjb/africa/details.php?langue=an&id=81495 status 2009 http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=HIVI based on GRIN status 9/5/2011 http://www.jstor.org/pss/4120636 Kew Bull., 2003 http://www.eol.org/pages/584775/names EOL Annual Checklist 2010 http://www.mozambiqueflora.com/speciesdata/species.php?species_id=139680 4/7/2011 http://www.flickr.com/photos/photosofsrilanka/4348195473/ Jan 2010 http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/ProductDetail.do? D7=0&N5=SEARCH_CONCAT_PNO|BRAND_KEY&N4=G1036|SIGMA&N25=0&QS=ON&F=SPEC<http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/ProductDetail.do?D7=0&N5=SEARCH_CONCAT_PNO%7CBRAND_KEY&N4=G1036%7CSIGMA&N25=0&QS=ON&F=SPEC> 2011 It would be interesting to know any recent publication which recognises Kosteletzkya vitifolia as accepted name. Interesting Hibiscus vitifolius is an African plant described in most African and South American Floras. It is also true that genus Kosteletzkya is recognised as disctinct. The million dollar question is if Kosteletzkya vitifolia combination published in BNHS is not valid and species really belongs to this genus Kostelzkya, why no author has published a valid combination (or name) for this so common a plant, which many had published as Fioria vitifolia (now merged back into Hibiscus). My simple conclusion is that perhaps Almeida and Patil were wrong in assigning Hibiscus vitifolia L. to genus Kostelzkya. The genus is separated from Hibiscus in having single ovule (and seed) in each locule, whereas Hibiscus vitifolius has 2-4 per locule as a rule. I think here lies the answer. This leaves the validity of combination made by Almeida and Patil without much meaning. -- Dr. Gurcharan Singh Retired Associate Professor SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 2:59 PM, H S <[email protected]> wrote: > Thanks Balkar ji for uploading the paper.... > Hope atleast some member should understand the position of H. vitifolia > > for people who think that i am against The Plant List... pls note that, I > never said dont follow The plant List... i said dont follow blindly, no > doubt its a latest publication on Plant taxonomy of the World and its the > best for the Nomenclature.. even i check the names on the site, but even i > check them in literature to confirm it,,, but what i found is there are some > mistakes in Indian plant,, or some species are not included which are > published at state level.... > > I do not know that The Plant List and the Missouri Botanical Garden had > any Indian taxonomist consultant... > > except few, I think the group is lacking in good Indian plant taxonomist, , > who are there in the country but unfortunately not the Group for > discussion... > > regards, > > On Sat, Sep 10, 2011 at 7:14 AM, Balkar Arya <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Dear all here is Paper >> I have access to vol 1 to 100 of J of Bombay Natural History society. >> Pls feel free to ask any paper. I may take time top get them converted in >> PDF format that the problem >> >> >> On Fri, Sep 9, 2011 at 10:21 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Dear Dr. Sngh... >>> >>> I think you are right.. futile to react... but it needs to get on the >>> permanent record about How useful the plant list is and so that our members >>> all refer to it or at least not object to it... >>> I think its a wonderful resource... >>> >>> Re: futile to react.... even in my medical college class we had some >>> students who got degrees but did not get any learning... in Gujarati its >>> called 'Bhanya pana ganya nahi... ie got certificates but did not learn to >>> deal in life... or some such thing... >>> >>> >>> se la vi... >>> >>> I realize how difficult the taxonomy task is... before the human >>> tumors/cancers well well defined and classified in the 50s and 60s ... it >>> must have been a very difficult job for the doctors who were treating >>> them... >>> >>> Also, the need to standardize plant names was driven home when I started >>> studying herbal medicine and then Ayurvedic medicine where there are sooo >>> many vernacular names and sooo many conflicting names that its not funny... >>> >>> cheers is right.... >>> >>> Goodnite.. >>> Usha di >>> >>> ======= >>> >>> On , Gurcharan Singh <[email protected]> wrote: >>> > UshadiFor people like us who were struggling hard to prepare lists of >>> accepted names for decades now, the importance of GRIN, The Plant List and >>> Sorting Plant Names is so dear. After the two volumes of Index Kewensis 1893 >>> or so in which there were lists of accepted names and synonyms, we used to >>> always hunt for accepted names as subsequent supplements every 5 years no >>> distinction of of accepted names were available and we used to rely on >>> regular upldates by Raizada, Rao, and some me for knowing recent name >>> changes. It was only after nearly 100 years that we had GRIN as source of >>> finding correct names (of mainly American Plants) and now that the Plant >>> List is available (2010 onwards), listing all published names and recent >>> accepted names, what more does the Botanical community want. Only those who >>> have been doing hardcore research know the importance of such publications, >>> and that too online. Agreed there are some issues with unresolved names, >>> duplicity of names, but these constitute not more than 5-10 percent of >>> names. I have been writting to the Managers of the List about errors and >>> hope these would be solved soon, but to just reject the database, is >>> something no serious researcher can think of. >>> >>> > >>> > All of us can have our opinions on some things, but in the matter >>> of names in our database, we can only rely on what is the latest by >>> consensus. >>> > >>> > >>> > After reading this concluding statement, I think it is futile to react. >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > "no problem sirji... i do not have any problem you calling it >>> Hibiscus vitifolia... >>> > >>> > but i willl follow what i feel is correct.." >>> > >>> > >>> > We will continue to do whatever is good for the welfare of the group. >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > Cheers Usha di >>> > >>> > >>> > . >>> > -- >>> > Dr. Gurcharan Singh >>> > Retired Associate Professor >>> > SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 >>> > Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. >>> > >>> > Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 >>> > http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ >>> > On Fri, Sep 9, 2011 at 8:42 PM, Ushadi micromini >>> [email protected]> wrote: >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > NO NO NO, >>> > >>> > we will not stop this thread... >>> > >>> > the issues are not resolved... >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > First issue is "BLINDLY FOLLOWING THE PLANT LIST" >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > I looked in the history of THE PLANT LIST yesterday (for a different >>> > >>> > matter) >>> > >>> > what I found has earned my respect... >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > Its not a run by a flyby nite operation... nor is it a money grabbing >>> > >>> > operation... >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > Its a KEW and Missouri Botanical Garden joint venture... both places >>> > >>> > are run by and staffed by >>> > >>> > very scientific .. very correct, very studious, and top of the line >>> > >>> > educated folks... both places... They even rate the names as accepted >>> > >>> > on basis of percentage acceptability, which I thought was very >>> > >>> > honest.... >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > MOST OF US including you mr. HS will do well to start following the >>> > >>> > PLANT list as a basis.... >>> > >>> > then... BASIC RESEARCH HAS its place... >>> > >>> > let the professors of BOTANY and Taxonomy figure out and publish... >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > SECOND ISSUE IS CAN I GET A PDF OF THIS PAPER: Kosteletzkya vitifolia >>> > >>> > (L.) M.R.Almeida & N.Patil J. Bombay Nat. Hist. Soc.93: 111 1996 ... >>> > >>> > which is at the heart of this argument... cant find it on the net... >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > Thanks Usha di >>> > >>> > ========== >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > On Sep 9, 3:25 pm, H S [email protected]> wrote: >>> > >>> > > no problem sirji... i do not have any problem you calling it Hibiscus >>> > >>> > > vitifolia... >>> > >>> > > but i willl follow what i feel is correct.. >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > > ok.. here we shall stop discussion about this post.. >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > > regards,, >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > >>> > > On Fri, Sep 9, 2011 at 3:49 PM, Gurcharan Singh [email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> > >>> > > > Dear H S >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > > > Please don't make comments like ......all the members are just >>> blindly >>> > >>> > > > following the Plant list or other sites for identification of >>> plants. >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > > > There are many well informed members on the group, who can apply >>> their >>> > >>> > > > judgement in deciding what is correct. We have learnt to respect >>> each member >>> > >>> > > > and expect you to follow the same for the sake of this group. Just >>> for your >>> > >>> > > > information the following databases treat Hibiscus vitifolius as >>> the >>> > >>> > > > accepted name: >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > > >http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=HIVI >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > > >http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/npgs/html/taxon.pl?19104 >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > > >http://www.theplantlist.org/tpl/record/kew-2850698 >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > > >http://www.eol.org/pages/584775/overview >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > > >http://www.jstor.org/pss/4120636 >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > > > >>> http://www.mozambiqueflora.com/speciesdata/species.php?species_id=139680 >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > >>> > > > >>> http://www.ville-ge.ch/musinfo/bd/cjb/africa/details.php?langue=an&id... >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > > > These are just a few recent ones. Tanay gave you a valid reason, >>> but if you >>> > >>> > > > still insist that others are wrong, perhaps we may not be able to >>> do any >>> > >>> > > > thing. >>> > >>> > > > I request again, let us discuss, agree or disagree, but don't >>> treat >>> > >>> > > > others as if they don't know any thing. Let us devote our energies >>> towards >>> > >>> > > > helping members to know their plants. >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > > > -- >>> > >>> > > > Dr. Gurcharan Singh >>> > >>> > > > Retired Associate Professor >>> > >>> > > > SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 >>> > >>> > > > Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. >>> > >>> > > > Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 >>> > >>> > > >http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > >>> > > > On Fri, Sep 9, 2011 at 3:06 PM, H S [email protected]> wrote: >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > > >> Dear all, >>> > >>> > > >> Apologise if i have hurted anyones sentiments... ... >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > > >> and my knowledge is like a drop in a big jar of Dr. Singh and many >>> others >>> > >>> > > >> on group. >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > > >> though i am proud that whatever i have learnt is in a right >>> direction... >>> > >>> > > >> i dont want to pick wrong things from The Plant List... for eg.. >>> suppose >>> > >>> > > >> Kosteletzkya vitifolia name is unresolved because it doesnt have >>> basionym in >>> > >>> > > >> original publication... that doesnt mean that Hibiscus vitifolia >>> becames the >>> > >>> > > >> correct name... instead of making Kosteletzkya vitifolia valid by >>> new >>> > >>> > > >> publication or in newly fresh combination with valid >>> publication,,,, or it >>> > >>> > > >> has to put on discussion.... all the members are just blindly >>> following the >>> > >>> > > >> Plant list or other sites for identification of plants... >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > > >> We should not forget the purpose of the group... >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > > >> my intention is just contribute to group for bringing plants valid >>> correct >>> > >>> > > >> name in front of the world.. >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > > >> regards, >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > >>> > > >> On Fri, Sep 9, 2011 at 12:45 PM, Tanay Bose [email protected] >>> >wrote: >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > > >>> This what ICBN Vienna Code 2006 Article 33.5 states >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > > >>> "33.5. For names published on or after 1 January 1953, errors in >>> the >>> > >>> > > >>> citation of the basionym or replaced synonym, including incorrect >>> author >>> > >>> > >>> > > >>> citation (Art. 46 >>> http://ibot.sav.sk/icbn/frameset/0050Ch4Sec3a046.htm>), >>> > >>> > > >>> but not omissions (Art. 33.4 >>> http://ibot.sav.sk/icbn/frameset/0037Ch4Sec2a033.htm#33.4.>), >>> >>> > >>> > > >>> do not preclude valid publication of a new combination, new >>> generic name >>> > >>> > > >>> with a basionym, or nomen novum." >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > > >>> Tanay >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > >>> > > >>> On Fri, Sep 9, 2011 at 12:01 AM, Tanay Bose >>> [email protected]>wrote: >>> > >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > > >>>> Dear H.S Ji. >>> > >>> > > >>>> I appreciate your knowledge in plant but I think your way of >>> > >>> > > >>>> reciprocating >>> > >>> > > >>>> to senior colleagues of the group is not quite O.K for me. In >>> scientific >>> > >>> > > >>>> community >>> > >>> > > >>>> if you are vehemently protesting some ideas then you should have >>> a >>> > >>> > > >>>> strong evidence >>> > >>> > > >>>> for it. It not us who makes these nomenclatural changes but the >>> credit >>> > >>> > > >>>> goes to ICBN. >>> > >>> > > >>>> Kosteletzkya vitifolia (L.) M.R.Almeida & N.Patil J. Bombay Nat. >>> Hist. >>> > >>> > > >>>> Soc. 93: 111 1996 >>> > >>> > > >>>> is an unresolved name the reason for it is the absence of >>> basionym in >>> > >>> > > >>>> the publication. >>> > >>> > > >>>> Hence, the new nomenclatural change doesn't make any effect and >>> the old >>> > >>> > > >>>> name or the >>> > >>> > > >>>> basionym i.e. Hibiscus vitifolius L. stays as the the legitimate >>> name. >>> > >>> > > >>>> Kindly go through the link provided below. >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > > >>>>http://www.theplantlist.org/tpl/record/kew-2334897 >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > > >>>> As a moderator of the group I will request you to be cordial >>> with fellow >>> > >>> > > >>>> members of the >>> > >>> > > >>>> group. Though identification of plant is the main aim of our >>> group but >>> > >>> > > >>>> we always make sure >>> > >>> > > >>>> that the interaction within the group stays soothing and >>> peaceful. No >>> > >>> > > >>>> comments from >>> > >>> > > >>>> any members of the group should hurt the sentiments of others. I >>> will >>> > >>> > > >>>> request you to kindly >>> > >>> > > >>>> stick to the group norm and try to help help members >>> > >>> > > >>>> with identification in a bit cordial >>> > >>> > > >>>> manner. Your knowledge in taxonomy is an asset to the group >>> hence we >>> > >>> > > >>>> will always look >>> > >>> > > >>>> to get our knowledge refreshed from your ideas. >>> > >>> > > >>>> forward >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > > >>>> Thanks >>> > >>> > > >>>> Tanay >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > > >>>> On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 11:21 PM, H S [email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > > >>>>> this plant doesnt comes under genus Hibiscus.... its different. >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > > >>>>> regards, >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > >>> > > >>>>> On Fri, Sep 9, 2011 at 11:44 AM, Gurcharan Singh >>> [email protected]>wrote: >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > > >>>>>> Both GRIN and The Plant List treat Hibiscus vitifolius L. as >>> the >>> > >>> > > >>>>>> accepted name. >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > > >>>>>> -- >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > > >>>>>> Dr. Gurcharan Singh >>> > >>> > > >>>>>> Retired Associate Professor >>> > >>> > > >>>>>> SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 >>> > >>> > > >>>>>> Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. >>> > >>> > > >>>>>> Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 >>> > >>> > > >>>>>>http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > >>> > > >>>>>> On Fri, Sep 9, 2011 at 10:25 AM, H S [email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > > >>>>>>> i think Kosteletzkya vitifolia (L.) M.R.Almeida & N.Patil >>> > >>> > > >>>>>>> is correct name for this plant. >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > > >>>>>>> On Wed, Sep 7, 2011 at 6:03 PM, shrikant ingalhalikar >>> > >>> > > >>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > > >>>>>>>> Involucral bracts are not forked and calyx is not >>> prickly/bristly. >>> > >>> > > >>>>>>>> Note the nodding corolla also. This is hence not H. radiatus >>> but >>> > >>> > > >>>>>>>> Fioria vitifolia. Regards, Shrikant >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > > >>>>>>>> On Sep 7, 12:11 pm, Gurcharan Singh [email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> > >>> > > >>>>>>>> > More shots of leaves and epicalyx should be helpful. To me >>> it does >>> > >>> > > >>>>>>>> not look >>> > >>> > > >>>>>>>> > like H. radiatus. >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > > >>>>>>>> > -- >>> > >>> > > >>>>>>>> > Dr. Gurcharan Singh >>> > >>> > > >>>>>>>> > Retired Associate Professor >>> > >>> > > >>>>>>>> > SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 >>> > >>> > > >>>>>>>> > Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. >>> > >>> > >>> > > >>>>>>>> > Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 >>> > >>> > > >>>>>>>>http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > >>> > > >>>>>>>> > On Wed, Sep 7, 2011 at 12:27 PM, Narendra Joshi >>> > > >>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>> > >>> > > >>>>>>>> > > Hibiscus radiatus >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > > >>>>>>>> > > -- >>> > >>> > > >>>>>>>> > > With Regards, >>> > >>> > > >>>>>>>> > > Narendra Joshi- Hide quoted text - >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > > >>>>>>>> > - Show quoted text - >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > > >>>>>>> -- >>> > >>> > > >>>>>>> - H.S. >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > > >>>>>>> A scientific man ought to have no wishes, no affections, - a >>> mere >>> > >>> > > >>>>>>> heart of stone >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > > >>>>> -- >>> > >>> > > >>>>> - H.S. >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > > >>>>> A scientific man ought to have no wishes, no affections, - a >>> mere heart >>> > >>> > > >>>>> of stone >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > > >>>> -- >>> > >>> > > >>>> *Tanay Bose* >>> > >>> > > >>>> Research Assistant & Teaching Assistant. >>> > >>> > > >>>> Department of Botany. >>> > >>> > > >>>> University of British Columbia . >>> > >>> > > >>>> 3529-6270 University Blvd. >>> > >>> > > >>>> Vancouver, B.C. V6T 1Z4 (Canada) >>> > >>> > > >>>> Phone: 778-323-4036 (Mobile) >>> > >>> > > >>>> 604-822-2019 (Lab) >>> > >>> > > >>>> 604-822-6089 (Fax) >>> > >>> > >>> > > >>>> [email protected] >>> > >>> > > >>>> *Webpages:* >>> > >>> > > >>>>http://www.botany.ubc.ca/people/mberbee.html >>> > >>> > > >>>>http://www.botany.ubc.ca/people/gradstud.html >>> > >>> > > >>>>https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/ >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > > >>> -- >>> > >>> > > >>> *Tanay Bose* >>> > >>> > > >>> Research Assistant & Teaching Assistant. >>> > >>> > > >>> Department of Botany. >>> > >>> > > >>> University of British Columbia . >>> > >>> > > >>> 3529-6270 University Blvd. >>> > >>> > > >>> Vancouver, B.C. V6T 1Z4 (Canada) >>> > >>> > > >>> Phone: 778-323-4036 (Mobile) >>> > >>> > > >>> 604-822-2019 (Lab) >>> > >>> > > >>> 604-822-6089 (Fax) >>> > >>> > >>> > > >>> [email protected] >>> > >>> > >>> > > >>> *Webpages:* >>> > >>> > > >>>http://www.botany.ubc.ca/people/mberbee.html >>> > >>> > > >>>http://www.botany.ubc.ca/people/gradstud.html >>> > >>> > > >>>https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/ >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > > >> -- >>> > >>> > > >> - H.S. >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > > >> A scientific man ought to have no wishes, no affections, - a mere >>> heart of >>> > >>> > > >> stone >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > > -- >>> > >>> > > - H.S. >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > > A scientific man ought to have no wishes, no affections, - a mere >>> heart of >>> > >>> > > stone >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Regards >> >> Dr Balkar Singh >> Head, Deptt. of Botany and Biotechnology >> Arya P G College, Panipat >> Haryana-132103 >> 09416262964 >> > > > > -- > - H.S. > > A scientific man ought to have no wishes, no affections, - a mere heart of > stone > >
