Dear all: one thing I learned from studying cancer .... which is also a study of structure, biology behaviour...
one thing I learned: is that we should try to keep an open mind... things may turn out to be quite different and may surprise the heck out of the learned minds, sometimes... nothing is written in stone... none of these floras.. or hortuses or whoever... went on the mountain and returned with a burning bush... these are not commandments from god... merely guidelines made by experts from some local university groups or botanical gardens, they study hard and make deductions BUT what they say should sometimes be taken as a guideline and not a commandment... I am sure they never came to India and saw these murraya plants in action... may be it behooves someone/ one two a few ... from our group to do that... somewhere in this thread I had even agreed to collect specimen and preserve and send for genetic analysis if someone was interested... or had the grant monies and lab equipment and grad students to do the research.... so lets not fight ... but do something constructive... may be we should have a Murraya panniculata week.... once every 3 months, that will cover the entire year's worth of the plants behaviour... leaf only, leaf and flowering stage, fruiting stage and dormancy in deep winter... which would perhaps be different in different parts of India... where people will take pictures in Prescribed format, with rulers /// and collect twigs, plant material fruits... etc... and press herbarium specimen... from all states of India.... and may be ceylon ... kamini grows there too... LETS THINK ABOUT THIS.... USHA di =============== On Oct 18, 11:06 am, H S <[email protected]> wrote: > I don't know, how many of us have seen these two plants, but i am sure who > ever have seen these two proper specimen will never treat it as one.. > > before i had said and again i am saying there are number of gaps in The > Plant List on Indian plants,,, those who want to follow it, no one can stop > them.. > > regards, > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 9:49 PM, Gurcharan Singh <[email protected]> wrote: > > Dear Vijaysankar ji > > I am very much aware of eFlora of China and treatment in It, but let us > > appreciate the fact that Flora of China is 1997 publication. I have > > following to support my conclusion: > > > The Plant list...............................................2010 > > Wikipedia....................................................September, > > 2011 > > GRIN............................................................note on > > Sept, 2011 based on *Beattie, A.* 2011. pers. comm. via E–mail to L. > > Fowler on 15 Sept 2011. [re. *M. exotica* vs. *M. paniculata*]. > > > Perhaps many more will follow. In my opinion two plants looking differently > > does not make much difference. What is important are differences are > > sufficient enough to merit distinction or merger. I believe in what > > taxonomic World thinks currently. > > > -- > > Dr. Gurcharan Singh > > Retired Associate Professor > > SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 > > Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. > > Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 > >http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ > > > On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 8:36 PM, Vijayasankar > > <[email protected]>wrote: > > >> No HS ji, I am sure He won't neglect FoC's treatment. The editors of FoC > >> also had the same opinion like ours, in both the cases Murraya and > >> Flacourtia. We know that they are (the spp.) different. That's why when > >> several Indian Floras treated them as synonyms, we could not agree. But > >> someone does come with solutions, and now we are comfortable. Its matter of > >> time. Thanks to the dynamic nature of plant systematics. Nothing is final! > > >> Regards > > >> Vijayasankar Raman > >> National Center for Natural Products Research > >> University of Mississippi > > >> On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 9:53 AM, H S <[email protected]> wrote: > > >>> Thanks Vijay ji for sharing this,, > > >>> but even i know that Sirji will not agree with this.. > > >>> thanks, > > >>> On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 8:13 PM, Vijayasankar > >>> <[email protected]>wrote: > > >>>> Dear all, > > >>>> We all know that Flora of China (FoC) is one of the most trusted > >>>> efloras, and most of the time a ready reference for identifying our > >>>> Indian > >>>> plants, too. > >>>> It treats *Murraya paniculata* and *M. exotica* as different species. > >>>> We knew this based on our field experience. > >>>> The differences, as per FoC are: [ > >>>>http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=2&taxon_id=121339] > > >>>> Leaflet blades mostly suborbicular to ovate to elliptic, 1.5-6 cm wide* > >>>> M. paniculata* > >>>> Leaflet blades elliptic-obovate or obovate, 0.5-3 cm > >>>> wide *M. exotica* > > >>>> These may appear to be variable characters if we refer only herbarium > >>>> specimens. > >>>> Some taxa for e.g. Flacourtia indica & F. romantchii, we know they are > >>>> different based on their differences in habit, ecology etc., but its > >>>> hard to > >>>> find strong characters to distinguish them convincingly. > > >>>> Regards > > >>>> Vijayasankar Raman > >>>> National Center for Natural Products Research > >>>> University of Mississippi > > >>>> On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 8:49 AM, Gurcharan Singh > >>>> <[email protected]>wrote: > > >>>>> Nothing can help one who does not want to see reason. Who can stop me > >>>>> if I insist on believing that whole taxonomic World is wrong. Let those > >>>>> who > >>>>> want to live in their World be so. > > >>>>> -- > >>>>> Dr. Gurcharan Singh > >>>>> Retired Associate Professor > >>>>> SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 > >>>>> Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. > >>>>> Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 > >>>>>http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ > > >>>>> On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 7:06 PM, H S <[email protected]> wrote: > > >>>>>> Dear all, > >>>>>> If plant is different surely they will have some differences i > >>>>>> guess... > > >>>>>> I think every one will agree that M. paniculata present in the wild as > >>>>>> well as in cultivation whereas M. exotica or M. paniculata var. > >>>>>> exotica or > >>>>>> cv of M. paniculata whatever we say its commonly cultivated in the > >>>>>> garden > >>>>>> for the glossy laeves and beautiful flowers.. if its cv than who had > >>>>>> made > >>>>>> it???? no doubt they are different and in Maharashtra both can seen > >>>>>> very > >>>>>> commonly,, those who eager to see the species can visit Amboli, > >>>>>> Mahabaleshwar, Mathera, Pune, Bhimashankar etc places to see M. > >>>>>> paniculata > >>>>>> and M. exotica in Nashik garden, Mumbai (Rani baug, Bombay trust > >>>>>> garden, > >>>>>> Gorai, Sanjay Gandhi National Park in Plantation near pond,, etc > >>>>>> etc..), > >>>>>> Kolhapur, Pune garden.. etc etc. > > >>>>>> regards, > > >>>>>> On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 5:25 PM, Gurcharan Singh > >>>>>> <[email protected]>wrote: > > >>>>>>> Mahadeswara ji > >>>>>>> For that that matter all species which have been described on the > >>>>>>> basis of different holotypes would be different species, because they > >>>>>>> will > >>>>>>> have some differences. If we have that concept there would be no > >>>>>>> heterotypic > >>>>>>> synonyms and we will have more than 5 lac species of angiosperms on > >>>>>>> this > >>>>>>> Earth, whereas most authors agree on this number being below 3 lacs. > >>>>>>> As I > >>>>>>> have written earlier also Hortus Third (considered Bible for > >>>>>>> cultivated > >>>>>>> plants), The Plant List, now even GRIN, and numerous other > >>>>>>> publications > >>>>>>> treat them as synonyms, and we would be doing little service to > >>>>>>> ignore them. > > >>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>> Dr. Gurcharan Singh > >>>>>>> Retired Associate Professor > >>>>>>> SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 > >>>>>>> Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. > >>>>>>> Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 > >>>>>>>http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ > > >>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 4:39 PM, Mahadeswara > >>>>>>> <[email protected]>wrote: > > >>>>>>>> I agree with Vijayasankar ji and H.S.ji. Both are different > >>>>>>>> species. Both these species are available in IIT Madras Campus > >>>>>>>> and > >>>>>>>> C L R I Campus, Adyar Chennai. While the M. paniculata is wild, > >>>>>>>> M.exotica is cultivated. In photograph both the plants look like. > >>>>>>>> Unfortunately, I am not in Chennai now. I had the photographs of > >>>>>>>> both. I will try to dig out from the archives in due course and > >>>>>>>> post > >>>>>>>> it to the group (depends on getting the photographs) > > >>>>>>>> On Jul 26, 6:40 am, Balkar Arya <[email protected]> wrote: > >>>>>>>> > Dear All > >>>>>>>> > *Murraya paniculata* > >>>>>>>> > *Family Rutaceae > >>>>>>>> > * > >>>>>>>> > *From Garden of PIET Campus Samalkha Panipat > >>>>>>>> > *-- > >>>>>>>> > Regards > > >>>>>>>> > Dr Balkar Singh > >>>>>>>> > Head, Deptt. of Botany and Biotechnology > >>>>>>>> > Arya P G College, Panipat > >>>>>>>> > Haryana-132103 > >>>>>>>> > 09416262964 > > >>>>>>>> > Murraya paniculata (1).JPG > >>>>>>>> > 175KViewDownload > > >>>>>>>> > Murraya paniculata (2).JPG > >>>>>>>> > 258KViewDownload > > >>>>>>>> > Murraya paniculata (3).JPG > >>>>>>>> > 240KViewDownload > > >>>>>>>> > Murraya paniculata (4).JPG > >>>>>>>> > 180KViewDownload > > >>>>>>>> > Murraya paniculata (5).JPG > >>>>>>>> > 214KViewDownload > > >>>>>>>> > Murraya paniculata (6).JPG > >>>>>>>> > 186KViewDownload > > >>>>>>>> > Murraya paniculata (7).JPG > >>>>>>>> > 201KViewDownload > > >>>>>> -- > >>>>>> - H.S. > > >>>>>> A scientific man ought to have no wishes, no affections, - a mere > >>>>>> heart of stone > > >>> -- > >>> - H.S. > > >>> A scientific man ought to have no wishes, no affections, - a mere heart > >>> of stone > > -- > - H.S. > > A scientific man ought to have no wishes, no affections, - a mere heart of > stone
