Dear Ushadi ji, This is not just studying this plant alone but there are several such ambiguities in the classification (especially plant classification) that had happened because of several reasons. It is time to rectify such ambiguities.
I do think that we need lots of discussions like this especially when people are of different opinion. Because opinions of taxonomists who work in different arena has their own share to it. I am pretty sure that people who work on revision of plants such as "the plant list" and GRIN will go for several discussions to get it concluded. Single person may not be able do this kind of work. Whenever there are more people working on the same aspect, there would be different opinions. We would be conclude the same only with help of fruitful discussions and debates . Regards, Giby On 18 October 2011 16:15, Ushadi micromini <[email protected]>wrote: > Dear Gurcharanji: > > You wrote: I quote: > "Perhaps no one has been as busy as me in sending them the > possible errors in their list, I send them at least one mail in one > week to > highlight ambiguities"... end quote... > > I commend you and laud you for doing this... > > It may help us young hotshots to know that... perhaps we have not > recognized... or even know your contribution in this aspect towards > the cause of Indian flora... we know you as a great teacher for us in > efloaindia/indiatreepix... but may not be aware of your international > inputs... > > MY HUMBLE suggestion... > > could you also forward a copy to eflora... as a new thread ... > whenever you write to these authorites ..pointing out their errata... > just cut and paste what you wrote/sent... > so that we may all know several thins: > 1) the efforts you put in...energy, botanical knowledge, your > reputation and other things in line... > > 2) if need be we can study up the matter and somehow help support your > argument... > and we will have a list of erratum right here... so that instead of > rejecting some of these authorities outright we the young ones will > know...and instead of fighting, something constructive will be done... > > 3) its very reassuring and comforting to know that an expert like you > who is also very helpful is always present at indiatreepix to help out > with proper id , be it for scientific minded extensive photo-report or > just a small point and shoot quick nonetoo clear picture of just the > flower... > > > > SECONDLY : I am sorry to say to a guru ... but Guruji, its not > always evident in this forum when these arguments heat up that you > keep an open mind... as you say I quote from your write up .... " > and keep my opinions open" end quote...may be its just a question of > style but .... we all are guilty of talking in shorthand , not just > yourself... and may not be very clear that we were keeping an open > mind... > > > SO WE STILL HAVE THIS QUESTION OPEN>>> SHOULD WE STUDY this > plant????... > > Usha di > ====== > > > > On Oct 18, 12:59 pm, Gurcharan Singh <[email protected]> wrote: > > Yes Giby ji > > The discussion is getting interesting. For decades we had been following > > original Index Kewensis. This time Kew has come into collaboration with > > Missouri Botanical Garden making use of huge databases like Tropicos, > IPNI > > and hundreds of other collaborators, and they are trying to build a list > of > > accepted names and synonyms. Agreed there are several mistakes, several > > unresolved names but these would be resolved over next few years. We have > to > > point out these mistakes where they exist, but simply rejecting these > would > > only harm us not the Plant List, which surely going to be the undisputed > > reference source. Perhaps no one has been as busy as me in sending them > the > > possible errors in their list, I send them at least one mail in one week > to > > highlight ambiguities. But finally once established the List would be > > followed by almost the whole World. I always base my decisions on recent > > evidence, and keep my opinions open. That is the right scientific > approach. > > > > -- > > Dr. Gurcharan Singh > > Retired Associate Professor > > SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 > > Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. > > Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ > > > > On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 12:50 PM, Giby Kuriakose > > <[email protected]>wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you sir ji the link provided by you is very informative. This > > > discussion turn to be interesting as the naming and treatment of the > plants > > > are so complicated. > > > Earlier people working from different parts of the world were not well > > > connected by any means as that of today. > > > Further, most of the publications were made regionally that was not > > > reaching to the people in the other parts of the world. These > publications > > > has started reaching people now with the advancement of communication > > > and digitization. > > > The communication gap would be the reason why there are so many > synonyms > > > for several species. > > > Now we have a good platform to discuss and dig out the right thing. But > we > > > need to understand the characters of a plant/animal that > > > discriminate taxonomically with due respect to the concept of species. > > > > > Regards, > > > Giby > > > > > On 18 October 2011 12:33, Gurcharan Singh <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > >> Yes Giby ji The Plant List and GRIN did differ, but please read note > under > > >> M. exotica updated in September 2011 > > > > >> " perhaps best treated as *M. paniculata* ‘Exotica’" > > > > >>http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/npgs/html/taxon.pl?24702 > > > > >> Besides Wikipedia, please also see the following link > > > > >>http://www.hear.org/pier/species/murraya_paniculata.htm > > > > >> I would be interested to know any recent treatment which considers > them > > >> separate. > > > > >> -- > > >> Dr. Gurcharan Singh > > >> Retired Associate Professor > > >> SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 > > >> Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. > > >> Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 > > >>http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ > > > > >> On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 12:09 PM, Ushadi micromini < > > >> [email protected]> wrote: > > > > >>> Dear all: > > > > >>> one thing I learned from studying cancer .... which is also a study > of > > >>> structure, biology behaviour... > > > > >>> one thing I learned: is that we should try to keep an open mind... > > > > >>> things may turn out to be quite different and may surprise the heck > > >>> out of the learned minds, sometimes... > > > > >>> nothing is written in stone... > > >>> none of these floras.. or hortuses or whoever... went on the mountain > > >>> and returned with a burning bush... > > >>> these are not commandments from god... merely guidelines made by > > >>> experts from some local university groups or botanical gardens, they > > >>> study hard and make deductions > > >>> BUT what they say should sometimes be taken as a guideline and not > > >>> a commandment... > > >>> I am sure they never came to India and saw these murraya plants in > > >>> action... > > > > >>> may be it behooves someone/ one two a few ... from our group to do > > >>> that... > > > > >>> somewhere in this thread I had even agreed to collect specimen and > > >>> preserve and send for genetic analysis if someone was interested... > or > > >>> had the grant monies and lab equipment and grad students to do the > > >>> research.... > > > > >>> so lets not fight ... but do something constructive... > > > > >>> may be we should have a Murraya panniculata week.... once every 3 > > >>> months, that will cover the entire year's worth of the plants > > >>> behaviour... leaf only, leaf and flowering stage, fruiting stage and > > >>> dormancy in deep winter... > > >>> which would perhaps be different in different parts of India... > > >>> where people will take pictures in Prescribed format, with > > >>> rulers /// and collect twigs, plant material fruits... etc... > > >>> and press herbarium specimen... from all states of India.... > > > > >>> and may be ceylon ... kamini grows there too... > > > > >>> LETS THINK ABOUT THIS.... > > > > >>> USHA di > > >>> =============== > > > > >>> On Oct 18, 11:06 am, H S <[email protected]> wrote: > > >>> > I don't know, how many of us have seen these two plants, but i am > sure > > >>> who > > >>> > ever have seen these two proper specimen will never treat it as > one.. > > > > >>> > before i had said and again i am saying there are number of gaps in > The > > >>> > Plant List on Indian plants,,, those who want to follow it, no one > can > > >>> stop > > >>> > them.. > > > > >>> > regards, > > > > >>> > On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 9:49 PM, Gurcharan Singh < > [email protected]> > > >>> wrote: > > >>> > > Dear Vijaysankar ji > > >>> > > I am very much aware of eFlora of China and treatment in It, but > let > > >>> us > > >>> > > appreciate the fact that Flora of China is 1997 publication. I > have > > >>> > > following to support my conclusion: > > > > >>> > > The Plant list...............................................2010 > > > > >>> > Wikipedia....................................................September, > > >>> > > 2011 > > >>> > > > GRIN............................................................note > > >>> on > > >>> > > Sept, 2011 based on *Beattie, A.* 2011. pers. comm. via E–mail to > L. > > >>> > > Fowler on 15 Sept 2011. [re. *M. exotica* vs. *M. paniculata*]. > > > > >>> > > Perhaps many more will follow. In my opinion two plants looking > > >>> differently > > >>> > > does not make much difference. What is important are differences > are > > >>> > > sufficient enough to merit distinction or merger. I believe in > what > > >>> > > taxonomic World thinks currently. > > > > >>> > > -- > > >>> > > Dr. Gurcharan Singh > > >>> > > Retired Associate Professor > > >>> > > SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 > > >>> > > Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. > > >>> > > Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 > > >>> > >http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ > > > > >>> > > On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 8:36 PM, Vijayasankar < > > >>> [email protected]>wrote: > > > > >>> > >> No HS ji, I am sure He won't neglect FoC's treatment. The > editors of > > >>> FoC > > >>> > >> also had the same opinion like ours, in both the cases Murraya > and > > >>> > >> Flacourtia. We know that they are (the spp.) different. That's > why > > >>> when > > >>> > >> several Indian Floras treated them as synonyms, we could not > agree. > > >>> But > > >>> > >> someone does come with solutions, and now we are comfortable. > Its > > >>> matter of > > >>> > >> time. Thanks to the dynamic nature of plant systematics. Nothing > is > > >>> final! > > > > >>> > >> Regards > > > > >>> > >> Vijayasankar Raman > > >>> > >> National Center for Natural Products Research > > >>> > >> University of Mississippi > > > > >>> > >> On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 9:53 AM, H S <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > >>> > >>> Thanks Vijay ji for sharing this,, > > > > >>> > >>> but even i know that Sirji will not agree with this.. > > > > >>> > >>> thanks, > > > > >>> > >>> On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 8:13 PM, Vijayasankar < > > >>> [email protected]>wrote: > > > > >>> > >>>> Dear all, > > > > >>> > >>>> We all know that Flora of China (FoC) is one of the most > trusted > > >>> > >>>> efloras, and most of the time a ready reference for > identifying > > >>> our Indian > > >>> > >>>> plants, too. > > >>> > >>>> It treats *Murraya paniculata* and *M. exotica* as different > > >>> species. > > >>> > >>>> We knew this based on our field experience. > > >>> > >>>> The differences, as per FoC are: [ > > >>> > >>>> > http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=2&taxon_id=121339] > > > > >>> > >>>> Leaflet blades mostly suborbicular to ovate to elliptic, 1.5-6 > cm > > >>> wide* > > >>> > >>>> M. paniculata* > > >>> > >>>> Leaflet blades elliptic-obovate or obovate, 0.5-3 cm > > >>> > >>>> wide *M. exotica* > > > > >>> > >>>> These may appear to be variable characters if we refer only > > >>> herbarium > > >>> > >>>> specimens. > > >>> > >>>> Some taxa for e.g. Flacourtia indica & F. romantchii, we know > they > > >>> are > > >>> > >>>> different based on their differences in habit, ecology etc., > but > > >>> its hard to > > >>> > >>>> find strong characters to distinguish them convincingly. > > > > >>> > >>>> Regards > > > > >>> > >>>> Vijayasankar Raman > > >>> > >>>> National Center for Natural Products Research > > >>> > >>>> University of Mississippi > > > > >>> > >>>> On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 8:49 AM, Gurcharan Singh < > > >>> [email protected]>wrote: > > > > >>> > >>>>> Nothing can help one who does not want to see reason. Who can > > >>> stop me > > >>> > >>>>> if I insist on believing that whole taxonomic World is wrong. > Let > > >>> those who > > >>> > >>>>> want to live in their World be so. > > > > >>> > >>>>> -- > > >>> > >>>>> Dr. Gurcharan Singh > > >>> > >>>>> Retired Associate Professor > > >>> > >>>>> SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 > > >>> > >>>>> Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. > > >>> > >>>>> Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 > > >>> > >>>>>http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ > > > > >>> > >>>>> On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 7:06 PM, H S <[email protected]> > > >>> wrote: > > > > >>> > >>>>>> Dear all, > > >>> > >>>>>> If plant is different surely they will have some differences > i > > >>> > >>>>>> guess... > > > > >>> > >>>>>> I think every one will agree that M. paniculata present > > > > ... > > > > read more » -- GIBY KURIAKOSE PhD Ashoka Trust for Research in Ecology and the Environment (ATREE), Royal Enclave, Jakkur Post, Srirampura Bangalore- 560064 India Phone - +91 9448714856 (Mobile) visit my pictures @ http://www.flickr.com/photos/giby
