Dear friends, Thanks, everybody. I now close the thread here itself.
On 24 October 2011 10:25, Gurcharan Singh <[email protected]> wrote: > Great spirit Ritesh ji > Tanay was already my favourite. Now you and Pankaj ji are also getting into > the same category. God bless all three of you. You have a great sense of > maturity and great future ahead. My blessings always with yoy. > > > -- > Dr. Gurcharan Singh > Retired Associate Professor > SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 > Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. > Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 > http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ > > > On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 10:19 AM, Yazdy Palia <[email protected]>wrote: > >> Boy! This is why I admire this group. >> regards >> Yazdy. >> >> On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 9:34 AM, Gurcharan Singh <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> > Pankaj ji >> > I think we have fought the most, but tell me why I am becoming a fan of >> > yours increasingly?. I have the answer but perhaps I want you to guess. >> > -- >> > Dr. Gurcharan Singh >> > Retired Associate Professor >> > SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 >> > Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. >> > Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 >> > http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ >> > >> > On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 9:24 AM, Dr Pankaj Kumar < >> [email protected]> >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> I missed this thread some how so I thought of putting my views in >> >> without actually reading all mails. >> >> Dear HS, Firstly, yes identifying plants from pics is not the actual >> >> taxonomy BUT none of us here are claiming to be taxonomists. >> >> But trust me, identifying plants from herbarium specimens or live >> >> specimens is also not taxonomy. And how many of us do have the access >> >> to the herbaria. Even the digital herbaria in kew and nybg and other >> >> places are also actually pictures. And trust me, theyc an be wrong. If >> >> you look at orchids in Kew collection, you can see I have made some >> >> changes there as well. Trust me my friend, your own herbaria, BLAT was >> >> one of the most toughest place to reach for reference few years back >> >> and I feel sorry to add that one of your own men, in Flora of >> >> Maharastra has made blunders in Orchidaceae section that I always tell >> >> them not to follow Flora of Maharastra. I have less idea about other >> >> families. All those blunders I have corrected and send them to Kew and >> >> now you can see his names as synonyms. >> >> >> >> Taxonomy is a very vast subject and nomenclature is a small part of >> >> it. For us to interact with people who are not from botany background >> >> is not easy. So we try to use simple terms and words to communicate. I >> >> myself have been trying since beginning of my joining that common >> >> people should learn more. >> >> >> >> Please just think of few limitations of our group: >> >> 1. Here you can only share pics and not specimens. If you need >> >> specimen then you can ask the person if he or she has collected it and >> >> he or she is able to send the specimens to people across India to get >> >> it thoroughly identified. >> >> 2. To facilitate members use proper keys and literature I personally >> >> distributed pdfs of many literature. My aim was to bring people more >> >> closer to science than just identification. But yes, now that I am in >> >> Hong Kong, I cant distribute cds and dvds from here. Its very costly.. >> >> 3. When you say, SO CALLED BOTANISTS AND TAXONOMISTS, trust me there >> >> are many botanists and many taxonomists here, that includes you also. >> >> But we tend not to show because we want to keep it simple other people >> >> who are valuable members of the group. And these non-botanists >> >> valuable members form the major part of our group. This group started >> >> with 1 person and now we have more than 1700 members which is really >> >> big. >> >> >> >> Trust me, I was also like you I would say, worst that you!!! :)) when >> >> I joined (search my earlier mails, how many times I have fought !!! , >> >> and kept fighting and left three times and came back. I really had a >> >> very bad impression int he group. But I realized these limitations and >> >> I tried to be more normal that before. There are many non botanists >> >> who do better job than us, Dinesh sir, Tabish sir and shrikant sir >> >> just few examples. >> >> >> >> So trust me my friend, people like you can help us get more confirmed >> >> ids than before because we know you are a taxonomist. I have been >> >> practicing taxonomy since more than 12 years, and I have limited >> >> myself to Orchids, but I still call myself a plant explorer and not >> >> taxonomist. You are a floricist, your expertise is much wider than >> >> mine. So I would say you are far better than me. If I say, Pollinarium >> >> has a caudicle and viscidium in Aerides but there is no caudicle and >> >> viscidium in Dendrobium, trust me, more than 80% will not understand. >> >> When there is need we do share such informations. >> >> >> >> Just for example, Orchdiaceae, the key starts with the Pollinia, but I >> >> dont remember people ever sharing pics of pollinia with me. Then what >> >> should I do? I do request them some times, as few days before I had >> >> identified a plant myself as Dendrobium peguanum but I asked him to >> >> show pollinia because it can be Eria. But I was foolish, because Some >> >> different image of Eria I had in mind. We do make mistakes, its not a >> >> big deal. But we always try to correct it. I identified a plant as 1 >> >> species of Pleione few years back and then I checked again and after >> >> one year I changed the name after giving specifications. I did those >> >> corrections because like you I also believe in correct id and not just >> >> throw a name to any plant. >> >> >> >> To me you are a good and STRICT botanist. Its not an issue if the >> >> person doesnt give more details of the plant. If we cant id, then we >> >> leave it like that. But fi we id, that also is not 100% confirm unless >> >> its a very common plant. If you see Dr. Gurcharan's mail, he very >> >> often tends to write "PERHAPS", this itself means he is not confirm, I >> >> tend to add "may be". So most of our IDs are tentative ids and we keep >> >> checking. >> >> >> >> During school days when we gave exams, we were always told to REVISE >> >> once we finished writing. Here also we revise things. We revise our >> >> own ids. And if we have doubts, we put forward the details and issues. >> >> Its is a good habit. >> >> >> >> So my dear HS, cheer up and smile. and start contributing with a more >> >> cheerful mood like me :). Why I am laughing because, I was exactly >> >> like you 1.5 year back arrogant and raising questions over similar >> >> issues!!! I see me in you!! >> >> >> >> Regards >> >> Pankaj >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> > Particularly in a forum like this ... where we do not really know >> each >> >> > other.. have never met each other, and hence have really no personal >> >> > rapport or views... and write in English.. which may not be natural >> >> > or easy for most to express what they mean... >> >> > >> >> > Usha di >> >> > ====== >> >> > >> >> > On Oct 23, 7:43 pm, H S <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > > i dont have any false notion, never said that i am the taxonomist >> or i >> >> > > am >> >> > > only the taxonomist,, >> >> > >> >> > > On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 8:04 PM, Gurcharan Singh < >> [email protected]> >> >> > > wrote: >> >> > > > H S >> >> > > > Why do you have these false notions. Why do you think you are the >> >> > > > only >> >> > > > taxonomist on this forum?. You are the only one who is afraid of >> >> > > > providing >> >> > > > supporting evidence, as you have no time for it. All of us rather >> >> > > > supply >> >> > > > evidence from both Indian as well as foreign references. I am >> some >> >> > > > times >> >> > > > surprised by what you write. >> >> > >> >> > > > -- >> >> > > > Dr. Gurcharan Singh >> >> > > > Retired Associate Professor >> >> > > > SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 >> >> > > > Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. >> >> > > > Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 >> >> > > >http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ >> >> > >> >> > > > On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 7:50 PM, H S <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >> > >> >> > > >> Cant imagine, the person who said that he dont value my any >> post, >> >> > > >> today he >> >> > > >> is saluting me... but anyways i dont deserve it... nothing done >> >> > > >> great yet.. >> >> > >> >> > > >> If group is just dealing with sharing the photographs than its >> more >> >> > > >> imagination, the kind of group is going on,, but when it comes >> to >> >> > > >> taxonomical part,, i dont want group to just follow the things >> >> > > >> without >> >> > > >> digging up the old original Indian literatures.. >> >> > >> >> > > >> regards, >> >> > >> >> > > >> On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 7:36 PM, Dinesh Valke >> >> > > >> <[email protected]>wrote: >> >> > >> >> > > >>> Dear HS, >> >> > >> >> > > >>> We all are made to carry our own photographs in various >> documents >> >> > > >>> to >> >> > > >>> prove our identity. >> >> > > >>> Without these we may stand to get detained from getting access >> to >> >> > > >>> many of >> >> > > >>> our regular routines. >> >> > > >>> Most of us also carry photos that could be some months old >> >> > > >>> (funnily even >> >> > > >>> years old). >> >> > > >>> We are all the same species, yet the authorities identify us >> with >> >> > > >>> our >> >> > > >>> photograph, normally 2" x 2". >> >> > > >>> Imagine if they start getting difficult with us saying they >> need >> >> > > >>> to check >> >> > > >>> our DNA, fingerprints, .... why ? because cannot trust >> >> > > >>> photographs. >> >> > >> >> > > >>> All this said may not compare with the stringent identification >> >> > > >>> procedure >> >> > > >>> involved in botany / zoology. >> >> > > >>> Point to drive is, here we "sincerely attempt" to identify >> flora. >> >> > > >>> This forum is not a ordinary place where IDs are resolved by >> mere >> >> > > >>> guesswork. >> >> > > >>> Everyone's existence in this group proves that. >> >> > > >>> Otherwise, no serious botanist would have stayed here for >> another >> >> > > >>> day. >> >> > >> >> > > >>> We are all here to find joy in finding out what we have >> explored >> >> > > >>> in the >> >> > > >>> beautiful nature around us. >> >> > >> >> > > >>> Personally, I have some books on flora that were easily >> available >> >> > > >>> to me. >> >> > > >>> It includes Shrikant ji's books and Kehimkar's book. They have >> >> > > >>> helped me >> >> > > >>> immensely. >> >> > > >>> Not to forget the inspiring Flowers of India site of dear >> Tabish. >> >> > >> >> > > >>> Plain people do not know what is herbarium. >> >> > > >>> Herbaria are not easily accessible OR available; ironically >> even >> >> > > >>> to the >> >> > > >>> botanists. >> >> > > >>> And if they are accessible to plain people, it will surprise us >> >> > > >>> all with >> >> > > >>> what they would say, though naively: >> >> > >> >> > > >>> How can any one trust identification done with help of this >> mashed >> >> > > >>> up >> >> > > >>> parts of plant ? >> >> > >> >> > > >>> My salutes to all the knowledgeable friends here, who patiently >> >> > > >>> put their >> >> > > >>> efforts time and again to identify flora which is so common to >> >> > > >>> them (that >> >> > > >>> includes you). >> >> > > >>> Identification done of a plant that we sighted gives us great >> joy. >> >> > > >>> I am sure it gives joy to the person who spends some minute(s) >> to >> >> > > >>> guess >> >> > > >>> OR some time to analyse and identify. >> >> > >> >> > > >>> Wishing you get lots of joy too. >> >> > >> >> > > >>> Regards. >> >> > > >>> Dinesh >> >> > >> >> > > >>> On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 6:37 PM, Gurcharan Singh >> >> > > >>> <[email protected]>wrote: >> >> > >> >> > > >>>> Dear H S >> >> > > >>>> The very purpose of this group is to share photographs >> taken >> >> > > >>>> by >> >> > > >>>> different members, and exchange these photographs. The members >> >> > > >>>> get their >> >> > > >>>> photographs identified through experts who know these plants. >> I >> >> > > >>>> have been >> >> > > >>>> practicing taxonomy for last 40 years and have studied >> herbarium >> >> > > >>>> specimens >> >> > > >>>> of almost all major Indian Herbaria, but I have learnt more >> >> > > >>>> taxonomy in last >> >> > > >>>> three years that I joined this group, and perhaps no one can >> >> > > >>>> appreciate the >> >> > > >>>> value of digital photographs than me. Perhaps half of our >> >> > > >>>> problems would be >> >> > > >>>> solved if we learn to move with the time and take benefit of >> >> > > >>>> developing >> >> > > >>>> technology. >> >> > >> >> > > >>>> If we agree to your view point that photographs are no use >> for >> >> > > >>>> identification, then perhaps we would have to disband this >> group >> >> > > >>>> of 1800 >> >> > > >>>> members. At least I don't subscribe to that. After excellent >> >> > > >>>> close ups by >> >> > > >>>> Pankaj ji, Dinesh ji, Satish ji, I have come to believe that >> >> > > >>>> perhaps a macro >> >> > > >>>> of fresh flower can give more details than a under microscope >> >> > > >>>> study of dried >> >> > > >>>> and deformed flower. >> >> > >> >> > > >>>> -- >> >> > > >>>> Dr. Gurcharan Singh >> >> > > >>>> Retired Associate Professor >> >> > > >>>> SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 >> >> > > >>>> Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. >> >> > > >>>> Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 >> >> > > >>>>http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ >> >> > >> >> > > >>>> On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 6:16 PM, H S <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >> > >> >> > > >>>>> dear sirji, if i asked for some more details about the plants >> >> > > >>>>> than what >> >> > > >>>>> wrong i did, because i know that there are two more similar >> >> > > >>>>> looking species >> >> > > >>>>> in the same genus.. >> >> > >> >> > > >>>>> i never trust anyones identification done from the >> photograph.. >> >> > >> >> > > >>>>> if group is not happy about my post than i am not interested >> in >> >> > > >>>>> discussing the things.. >> >> > >> >> > > >>>>> thanks.. >> >> > >> >> > > >>>>> On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 4:39 PM, Gurcharan Singh >> >> > > >>>>> <[email protected]>wrote: >> >> > >> >> > > >>>>>> I think it would help the group if more and more experts >> come >> >> > > >>>>>> forward >> >> > > >>>>>> to share different jobs. For last so many years my self and >> >> > > >>>>>> Garg ji have >> >> > > >>>>>> been doing our best to resurface the pending identifications >> >> > > >>>>>> and how tiring >> >> > > >>>>>> this job is. Every body knows we have been giving all >> previous >> >> > > >>>>>> feedbacks and >> >> > > >>>>>> our comments also. Seeing how difficult job it is Dinesh ji, >> >> > > >>>>>> who has been >> >> > > >>>>>> doing all important job for the website, (which not every >> one >> >> > > >>>>>> can >> >> > > >>>>>> appreciate). has given a lending of resurfacing. Rather than >> >> > > >>>>>> appreciating >> >> > > >>>>>> such efforts I find one member has chosen to find faults >> with >> >> > > >>>>>> it. It would >> >> > > >>>>>> have been more appropriate if he had found and supplemented >> the >> >> > > >>>>>> resurfacing >> >> > > >>>>>> efforts. I have been requesting him repeatedly to take up >> some >> >> > > >>>>>> jobs on the >> >> > > >>>>>> group. He does not want to do any job for the group, but is >> >> > > >>>>>> ready to find >> >> > > >>>>>> faults with every body else. His consistent lines in the >> middle >> >> > > >>>>>> of the >> >> > > >>>>>> thread have been "I think..............................." >> and >> >> > > >>>>>> there is not s >> >> > > >>>>>> single evidence to support his conclusion. The other day he >> >> > > >>>>>> wrote on the >> >> > > >>>>>> group "there may be other experts on the group who can >> identify >> >> > > >>>>>> your >> >> > > >>>>>> photographs but............................". Such type of >> >> > > >>>>>> behavior only >> >> > > >>>>>> spoils the atmosphere of the group. few days back when >> Dinesh >> >> > > >>>>>> ji shared >> >> > > >>>>>> some valuable identified plants on the group, he >> consistently >> >> > > >>>>>> asked him to >> >> > > >>>>>> supply details about the plants which were already >> identified >> >> > > >>>>>> and with >> >> > > >>>>>> useful information of all regional names. I had to tell him >> >> > > >>>>>> that person >> >> > > >>>>>> sharing his already identified plants is only doing service >> to >> >> > > >>>>>> the group, >> >> > > >>>>>> and every thing supplied by him is a bonus for us. If we >> have >> >> > > >>>>>> any doubts we >> >> > > >>>>>> should do our home work and if there are any doubts he >> should >> >> > > >>>>>> share with >> >> > > >>>>>> evidence. >> >> > > >>>>>> I am sorry to share this in the forum, but I have tried >> in >> >> > > >>>>>> vain >> >> > > >>>>>> that he does not spoil the harmony of the group, but it >> seems >> >> > > >>>>>> his intrusions >> >> > > >>>>>> are increasing and are not for the good of the group. I >> request >> >> > > >>>>>> him again >> >> > > >>>>>> that is a talented person and should use this for welfare of >> >> > > >>>>>> the group and >> >> > > >>>>>> not spoil its harmony through his frequent non too desirable >> >> > > >>>>>> utterances. >> >> > >> >> > > >>>>>> -- >> >> > > >>>>>> Dr. Gurcharan Singh >> >> > > >>>>>> Retired Associate Professor >> >> > > >>>>>> SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 >> >> > > >>>>>> Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. >> >> > > >>>>>> Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 >> >> > > >>>>>>http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ >> >> > >> >> > ... >> >> > >> >> > read more ยป >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > -- With regards, J.M.Garg ([email protected]) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jmgarg1 'Creating awareness of Indian Flora & Fauna' The whole world uses my Image Resource of more than a *thousand species* & eight thousand images of Birds, Butterflies, Plants etc. (arranged alphabetically & place-wise): http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:J.M.Garg. You can also use them for free as per Creative Commons license attached with each image. For identification, learning, discussion & documentation of Indian Flora, please visit/ join our Efloraofindia Google e-group: http://groups.google.co.in/group/indiantreepix (more than 1725 members & 85,000 messages on 30/9/11) or Efloraofindia website: https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/ (with a species database of around 5500 species). Also author of 'A Photoguide to the Birds of Kolkata & Common Birds of India'.
