Boy! This is why I admire this group. regards Yazdy.
On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 9:34 AM, Gurcharan Singh <[email protected]> wrote: > Pankaj ji > I think we have fought the most, but tell me why I am becoming a fan of > yours increasingly?. I have the answer but perhaps I want you to guess. > -- > Dr. Gurcharan Singh > Retired Associate Professor > SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 > Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. > Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 > http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ > > On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 9:24 AM, Dr Pankaj Kumar <[email protected]> > wrote: >> >> I missed this thread some how so I thought of putting my views in >> without actually reading all mails. >> Dear HS, Firstly, yes identifying plants from pics is not the actual >> taxonomy BUT none of us here are claiming to be taxonomists. >> But trust me, identifying plants from herbarium specimens or live >> specimens is also not taxonomy. And how many of us do have the access >> to the herbaria. Even the digital herbaria in kew and nybg and other >> places are also actually pictures. And trust me, theyc an be wrong. If >> you look at orchids in Kew collection, you can see I have made some >> changes there as well. Trust me my friend, your own herbaria, BLAT was >> one of the most toughest place to reach for reference few years back >> and I feel sorry to add that one of your own men, in Flora of >> Maharastra has made blunders in Orchidaceae section that I always tell >> them not to follow Flora of Maharastra. I have less idea about other >> families. All those blunders I have corrected and send them to Kew and >> now you can see his names as synonyms. >> >> Taxonomy is a very vast subject and nomenclature is a small part of >> it. For us to interact with people who are not from botany background >> is not easy. So we try to use simple terms and words to communicate. I >> myself have been trying since beginning of my joining that common >> people should learn more. >> >> Please just think of few limitations of our group: >> 1. Here you can only share pics and not specimens. If you need >> specimen then you can ask the person if he or she has collected it and >> he or she is able to send the specimens to people across India to get >> it thoroughly identified. >> 2. To facilitate members use proper keys and literature I personally >> distributed pdfs of many literature. My aim was to bring people more >> closer to science than just identification. But yes, now that I am in >> Hong Kong, I cant distribute cds and dvds from here. Its very costly.. >> 3. When you say, SO CALLED BOTANISTS AND TAXONOMISTS, trust me there >> are many botanists and many taxonomists here, that includes you also. >> But we tend not to show because we want to keep it simple other people >> who are valuable members of the group. And these non-botanists >> valuable members form the major part of our group. This group started >> with 1 person and now we have more than 1700 members which is really >> big. >> >> Trust me, I was also like you I would say, worst that you!!! :)) when >> I joined (search my earlier mails, how many times I have fought !!! , >> and kept fighting and left three times and came back. I really had a >> very bad impression int he group. But I realized these limitations and >> I tried to be more normal that before. There are many non botanists >> who do better job than us, Dinesh sir, Tabish sir and shrikant sir >> just few examples. >> >> So trust me my friend, people like you can help us get more confirmed >> ids than before because we know you are a taxonomist. I have been >> practicing taxonomy since more than 12 years, and I have limited >> myself to Orchids, but I still call myself a plant explorer and not >> taxonomist. You are a floricist, your expertise is much wider than >> mine. So I would say you are far better than me. If I say, Pollinarium >> has a caudicle and viscidium in Aerides but there is no caudicle and >> viscidium in Dendrobium, trust me, more than 80% will not understand. >> When there is need we do share such informations. >> >> Just for example, Orchdiaceae, the key starts with the Pollinia, but I >> dont remember people ever sharing pics of pollinia with me. Then what >> should I do? I do request them some times, as few days before I had >> identified a plant myself as Dendrobium peguanum but I asked him to >> show pollinia because it can be Eria. But I was foolish, because Some >> different image of Eria I had in mind. We do make mistakes, its not a >> big deal. But we always try to correct it. I identified a plant as 1 >> species of Pleione few years back and then I checked again and after >> one year I changed the name after giving specifications. I did those >> corrections because like you I also believe in correct id and not just >> throw a name to any plant. >> >> To me you are a good and STRICT botanist. Its not an issue if the >> person doesnt give more details of the plant. If we cant id, then we >> leave it like that. But fi we id, that also is not 100% confirm unless >> its a very common plant. If you see Dr. Gurcharan's mail, he very >> often tends to write "PERHAPS", this itself means he is not confirm, I >> tend to add "may be". So most of our IDs are tentative ids and we keep >> checking. >> >> During school days when we gave exams, we were always told to REVISE >> once we finished writing. Here also we revise things. We revise our >> own ids. And if we have doubts, we put forward the details and issues. >> Its is a good habit. >> >> So my dear HS, cheer up and smile. and start contributing with a more >> cheerful mood like me :). Why I am laughing because, I was exactly >> like you 1.5 year back arrogant and raising questions over similar >> issues!!! I see me in you!! >> >> Regards >> Pankaj >> >> >> >> > >> > Particularly in a forum like this ... where we do not really know each >> > other.. have never met each other, and hence have really no personal >> > rapport or views... and write in English.. which may not be natural >> > or easy for most to express what they mean... >> > >> > Usha di >> > ====== >> > >> > On Oct 23, 7:43 pm, H S <[email protected]> wrote: >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > i dont have any false notion, never said that i am the taxonomist or i >> > > am >> > > only the taxonomist,, >> > >> > > On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 8:04 PM, Gurcharan Singh <[email protected]> >> > > wrote: >> > > > H S >> > > > Why do you have these false notions. Why do you think you are the >> > > > only >> > > > taxonomist on this forum?. You are the only one who is afraid of >> > > > providing >> > > > supporting evidence, as you have no time for it. All of us rather >> > > > supply >> > > > evidence from both Indian as well as foreign references. I am some >> > > > times >> > > > surprised by what you write. >> > >> > > > -- >> > > > Dr. Gurcharan Singh >> > > > Retired Associate Professor >> > > > SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 >> > > > Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. >> > > > Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 >> > > >http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ >> > >> > > > On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 7:50 PM, H S <[email protected]> wrote: >> > >> > > >> Cant imagine, the person who said that he dont value my any post, >> > > >> today he >> > > >> is saluting me... but anyways i dont deserve it... nothing done >> > > >> great yet.. >> > >> > > >> If group is just dealing with sharing the photographs than its more >> > > >> imagination, the kind of group is going on,, but when it comes to >> > > >> taxonomical part,, i dont want group to just follow the things >> > > >> without >> > > >> digging up the old original Indian literatures.. >> > >> > > >> regards, >> > >> > > >> On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 7:36 PM, Dinesh Valke >> > > >> <[email protected]>wrote: >> > >> > > >>> Dear HS, >> > >> > > >>> We all are made to carry our own photographs in various documents >> > > >>> to >> > > >>> prove our identity. >> > > >>> Without these we may stand to get detained from getting access to >> > > >>> many of >> > > >>> our regular routines. >> > > >>> Most of us also carry photos that could be some months old >> > > >>> (funnily even >> > > >>> years old). >> > > >>> We are all the same species, yet the authorities identify us with >> > > >>> our >> > > >>> photograph, normally 2" x 2". >> > > >>> Imagine if they start getting difficult with us saying they need >> > > >>> to check >> > > >>> our DNA, fingerprints, .... why ? because cannot trust >> > > >>> photographs. >> > >> > > >>> All this said may not compare with the stringent identification >> > > >>> procedure >> > > >>> involved in botany / zoology. >> > > >>> Point to drive is, here we "sincerely attempt" to identify flora. >> > > >>> This forum is not a ordinary place where IDs are resolved by mere >> > > >>> guesswork. >> > > >>> Everyone's existence in this group proves that. >> > > >>> Otherwise, no serious botanist would have stayed here for another >> > > >>> day. >> > >> > > >>> We are all here to find joy in finding out what we have explored >> > > >>> in the >> > > >>> beautiful nature around us. >> > >> > > >>> Personally, I have some books on flora that were easily available >> > > >>> to me. >> > > >>> It includes Shrikant ji's books and Kehimkar's book. They have >> > > >>> helped me >> > > >>> immensely. >> > > >>> Not to forget the inspiring Flowers of India site of dear Tabish. >> > >> > > >>> Plain people do not know what is herbarium. >> > > >>> Herbaria are not easily accessible OR available; ironically even >> > > >>> to the >> > > >>> botanists. >> > > >>> And if they are accessible to plain people, it will surprise us >> > > >>> all with >> > > >>> what they would say, though naively: >> > >> > > >>> How can any one trust identification done with help of this mashed >> > > >>> up >> > > >>> parts of plant ? >> > >> > > >>> My salutes to all the knowledgeable friends here, who patiently >> > > >>> put their >> > > >>> efforts time and again to identify flora which is so common to >> > > >>> them (that >> > > >>> includes you). >> > > >>> Identification done of a plant that we sighted gives us great joy. >> > > >>> I am sure it gives joy to the person who spends some minute(s) to >> > > >>> guess >> > > >>> OR some time to analyse and identify. >> > >> > > >>> Wishing you get lots of joy too. >> > >> > > >>> Regards. >> > > >>> Dinesh >> > >> > > >>> On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 6:37 PM, Gurcharan Singh >> > > >>> <[email protected]>wrote: >> > >> > > >>>> Dear H S >> > > >>>> The very purpose of this group is to share photographs taken >> > > >>>> by >> > > >>>> different members, and exchange these photographs. The members >> > > >>>> get their >> > > >>>> photographs identified through experts who know these plants. I >> > > >>>> have been >> > > >>>> practicing taxonomy for last 40 years and have studied herbarium >> > > >>>> specimens >> > > >>>> of almost all major Indian Herbaria, but I have learnt more >> > > >>>> taxonomy in last >> > > >>>> three years that I joined this group, and perhaps no one can >> > > >>>> appreciate the >> > > >>>> value of digital photographs than me. Perhaps half of our >> > > >>>> problems would be >> > > >>>> solved if we learn to move with the time and take benefit of >> > > >>>> developing >> > > >>>> technology. >> > >> > > >>>> If we agree to your view point that photographs are no use for >> > > >>>> identification, then perhaps we would have to disband this group >> > > >>>> of 1800 >> > > >>>> members. At least I don't subscribe to that. After excellent >> > > >>>> close ups by >> > > >>>> Pankaj ji, Dinesh ji, Satish ji, I have come to believe that >> > > >>>> perhaps a macro >> > > >>>> of fresh flower can give more details than a under microscope >> > > >>>> study of dried >> > > >>>> and deformed flower. >> > >> > > >>>> -- >> > > >>>> Dr. Gurcharan Singh >> > > >>>> Retired Associate Professor >> > > >>>> SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 >> > > >>>> Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. >> > > >>>> Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 >> > > >>>>http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ >> > >> > > >>>> On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 6:16 PM, H S <[email protected]> wrote: >> > >> > > >>>>> dear sirji, if i asked for some more details about the plants >> > > >>>>> than what >> > > >>>>> wrong i did, because i know that there are two more similar >> > > >>>>> looking species >> > > >>>>> in the same genus.. >> > >> > > >>>>> i never trust anyones identification done from the photograph.. >> > >> > > >>>>> if group is not happy about my post than i am not interested in >> > > >>>>> discussing the things.. >> > >> > > >>>>> thanks.. >> > >> > > >>>>> On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 4:39 PM, Gurcharan Singh >> > > >>>>> <[email protected]>wrote: >> > >> > > >>>>>> I think it would help the group if more and more experts come >> > > >>>>>> forward >> > > >>>>>> to share different jobs. For last so many years my self and >> > > >>>>>> Garg ji have >> > > >>>>>> been doing our best to resurface the pending identifications >> > > >>>>>> and how tiring >> > > >>>>>> this job is. Every body knows we have been giving all previous >> > > >>>>>> feedbacks and >> > > >>>>>> our comments also. Seeing how difficult job it is Dinesh ji, >> > > >>>>>> who has been >> > > >>>>>> doing all important job for the website, (which not every one >> > > >>>>>> can >> > > >>>>>> appreciate). has given a lending of resurfacing. Rather than >> > > >>>>>> appreciating >> > > >>>>>> such efforts I find one member has chosen to find faults with >> > > >>>>>> it. It would >> > > >>>>>> have been more appropriate if he had found and supplemented the >> > > >>>>>> resurfacing >> > > >>>>>> efforts. I have been requesting him repeatedly to take up some >> > > >>>>>> jobs on the >> > > >>>>>> group. He does not want to do any job for the group, but is >> > > >>>>>> ready to find >> > > >>>>>> faults with every body else. His consistent lines in the middle >> > > >>>>>> of the >> > > >>>>>> thread have been "I think..............................." and >> > > >>>>>> there is not s >> > > >>>>>> single evidence to support his conclusion. The other day he >> > > >>>>>> wrote on the >> > > >>>>>> group "there may be other experts on the group who can identify >> > > >>>>>> your >> > > >>>>>> photographs but............................". Such type of >> > > >>>>>> behavior only >> > > >>>>>> spoils the atmosphere of the group. few days back when Dinesh >> > > >>>>>> ji shared >> > > >>>>>> some valuable identified plants on the group, he consistently >> > > >>>>>> asked him to >> > > >>>>>> supply details about the plants which were already identified >> > > >>>>>> and with >> > > >>>>>> useful information of all regional names. I had to tell him >> > > >>>>>> that person >> > > >>>>>> sharing his already identified plants is only doing service to >> > > >>>>>> the group, >> > > >>>>>> and every thing supplied by him is a bonus for us. If we have >> > > >>>>>> any doubts we >> > > >>>>>> should do our home work and if there are any doubts he should >> > > >>>>>> share with >> > > >>>>>> evidence. >> > > >>>>>> I am sorry to share this in the forum, but I have tried in >> > > >>>>>> vain >> > > >>>>>> that he does not spoil the harmony of the group, but it seems >> > > >>>>>> his intrusions >> > > >>>>>> are increasing and are not for the good of the group. I request >> > > >>>>>> him again >> > > >>>>>> that is a talented person and should use this for welfare of >> > > >>>>>> the group and >> > > >>>>>> not spoil its harmony through his frequent non too desirable >> > > >>>>>> utterances. >> > >> > > >>>>>> -- >> > > >>>>>> Dr. Gurcharan Singh >> > > >>>>>> Retired Associate Professor >> > > >>>>>> SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 >> > > >>>>>> Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. >> > > >>>>>> Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 >> > > >>>>>>http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ >> > >> > ... >> > >> > read more » > > >
