Great spirit Ritesh ji Tanay was already my favourite. Now you and Pankaj ji are also getting into the same category. God bless all three of you. You have a great sense of maturity and great future ahead. My blessings always with yoy.
-- Dr. Gurcharan Singh Retired Associate Professor SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 10:19 AM, Yazdy Palia <[email protected]> wrote: > Boy! This is why I admire this group. > regards > Yazdy. > > On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 9:34 AM, Gurcharan Singh <[email protected]> > wrote: > > Pankaj ji > > I think we have fought the most, but tell me why I am becoming a fan of > > yours increasingly?. I have the answer but perhaps I want you to guess. > > -- > > Dr. Gurcharan Singh > > Retired Associate Professor > > SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 > > Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. > > Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 > > http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ > > > > On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 9:24 AM, Dr Pankaj Kumar <[email protected] > > > > wrote: > >> > >> I missed this thread some how so I thought of putting my views in > >> without actually reading all mails. > >> Dear HS, Firstly, yes identifying plants from pics is not the actual > >> taxonomy BUT none of us here are claiming to be taxonomists. > >> But trust me, identifying plants from herbarium specimens or live > >> specimens is also not taxonomy. And how many of us do have the access > >> to the herbaria. Even the digital herbaria in kew and nybg and other > >> places are also actually pictures. And trust me, theyc an be wrong. If > >> you look at orchids in Kew collection, you can see I have made some > >> changes there as well. Trust me my friend, your own herbaria, BLAT was > >> one of the most toughest place to reach for reference few years back > >> and I feel sorry to add that one of your own men, in Flora of > >> Maharastra has made blunders in Orchidaceae section that I always tell > >> them not to follow Flora of Maharastra. I have less idea about other > >> families. All those blunders I have corrected and send them to Kew and > >> now you can see his names as synonyms. > >> > >> Taxonomy is a very vast subject and nomenclature is a small part of > >> it. For us to interact with people who are not from botany background > >> is not easy. So we try to use simple terms and words to communicate. I > >> myself have been trying since beginning of my joining that common > >> people should learn more. > >> > >> Please just think of few limitations of our group: > >> 1. Here you can only share pics and not specimens. If you need > >> specimen then you can ask the person if he or she has collected it and > >> he or she is able to send the specimens to people across India to get > >> it thoroughly identified. > >> 2. To facilitate members use proper keys and literature I personally > >> distributed pdfs of many literature. My aim was to bring people more > >> closer to science than just identification. But yes, now that I am in > >> Hong Kong, I cant distribute cds and dvds from here. Its very costly.. > >> 3. When you say, SO CALLED BOTANISTS AND TAXONOMISTS, trust me there > >> are many botanists and many taxonomists here, that includes you also. > >> But we tend not to show because we want to keep it simple other people > >> who are valuable members of the group. And these non-botanists > >> valuable members form the major part of our group. This group started > >> with 1 person and now we have more than 1700 members which is really > >> big. > >> > >> Trust me, I was also like you I would say, worst that you!!! :)) when > >> I joined (search my earlier mails, how many times I have fought !!! , > >> and kept fighting and left three times and came back. I really had a > >> very bad impression int he group. But I realized these limitations and > >> I tried to be more normal that before. There are many non botanists > >> who do better job than us, Dinesh sir, Tabish sir and shrikant sir > >> just few examples. > >> > >> So trust me my friend, people like you can help us get more confirmed > >> ids than before because we know you are a taxonomist. I have been > >> practicing taxonomy since more than 12 years, and I have limited > >> myself to Orchids, but I still call myself a plant explorer and not > >> taxonomist. You are a floricist, your expertise is much wider than > >> mine. So I would say you are far better than me. If I say, Pollinarium > >> has a caudicle and viscidium in Aerides but there is no caudicle and > >> viscidium in Dendrobium, trust me, more than 80% will not understand. > >> When there is need we do share such informations. > >> > >> Just for example, Orchdiaceae, the key starts with the Pollinia, but I > >> dont remember people ever sharing pics of pollinia with me. Then what > >> should I do? I do request them some times, as few days before I had > >> identified a plant myself as Dendrobium peguanum but I asked him to > >> show pollinia because it can be Eria. But I was foolish, because Some > >> different image of Eria I had in mind. We do make mistakes, its not a > >> big deal. But we always try to correct it. I identified a plant as 1 > >> species of Pleione few years back and then I checked again and after > >> one year I changed the name after giving specifications. I did those > >> corrections because like you I also believe in correct id and not just > >> throw a name to any plant. > >> > >> To me you are a good and STRICT botanist. Its not an issue if the > >> person doesnt give more details of the plant. If we cant id, then we > >> leave it like that. But fi we id, that also is not 100% confirm unless > >> its a very common plant. If you see Dr. Gurcharan's mail, he very > >> often tends to write "PERHAPS", this itself means he is not confirm, I > >> tend to add "may be". So most of our IDs are tentative ids and we keep > >> checking. > >> > >> During school days when we gave exams, we were always told to REVISE > >> once we finished writing. Here also we revise things. We revise our > >> own ids. And if we have doubts, we put forward the details and issues. > >> Its is a good habit. > >> > >> So my dear HS, cheer up and smile. and start contributing with a more > >> cheerful mood like me :). Why I am laughing because, I was exactly > >> like you 1.5 year back arrogant and raising questions over similar > >> issues!!! I see me in you!! > >> > >> Regards > >> Pankaj > >> > >> > >> > >> > > >> > Particularly in a forum like this ... where we do not really know each > >> > other.. have never met each other, and hence have really no personal > >> > rapport or views... and write in English.. which may not be natural > >> > or easy for most to express what they mean... > >> > > >> > Usha di > >> > ====== > >> > > >> > On Oct 23, 7:43 pm, H S <[email protected]> wrote: > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > i dont have any false notion, never said that i am the taxonomist or > i > >> > > am > >> > > only the taxonomist,, > >> > > >> > > On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 8:04 PM, Gurcharan Singh < > [email protected]> > >> > > wrote: > >> > > > H S > >> > > > Why do you have these false notions. Why do you think you are the > >> > > > only > >> > > > taxonomist on this forum?. You are the only one who is afraid of > >> > > > providing > >> > > > supporting evidence, as you have no time for it. All of us rather > >> > > > supply > >> > > > evidence from both Indian as well as foreign references. I am some > >> > > > times > >> > > > surprised by what you write. > >> > > >> > > > -- > >> > > > Dr. Gurcharan Singh > >> > > > Retired Associate Professor > >> > > > SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 > >> > > > Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. > >> > > > Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 > >> > > >http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ > >> > > >> > > > On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 7:50 PM, H S <[email protected]> wrote: > >> > > >> > > >> Cant imagine, the person who said that he dont value my any post, > >> > > >> today he > >> > > >> is saluting me... but anyways i dont deserve it... nothing done > >> > > >> great yet.. > >> > > >> > > >> If group is just dealing with sharing the photographs than its > more > >> > > >> imagination, the kind of group is going on,, but when it comes to > >> > > >> taxonomical part,, i dont want group to just follow the things > >> > > >> without > >> > > >> digging up the old original Indian literatures.. > >> > > >> > > >> regards, > >> > > >> > > >> On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 7:36 PM, Dinesh Valke > >> > > >> <[email protected]>wrote: > >> > > >> > > >>> Dear HS, > >> > > >> > > >>> We all are made to carry our own photographs in various > documents > >> > > >>> to > >> > > >>> prove our identity. > >> > > >>> Without these we may stand to get detained from getting access > to > >> > > >>> many of > >> > > >>> our regular routines. > >> > > >>> Most of us also carry photos that could be some months old > >> > > >>> (funnily even > >> > > >>> years old). > >> > > >>> We are all the same species, yet the authorities identify us > with > >> > > >>> our > >> > > >>> photograph, normally 2" x 2". > >> > > >>> Imagine if they start getting difficult with us saying they need > >> > > >>> to check > >> > > >>> our DNA, fingerprints, .... why ? because cannot trust > >> > > >>> photographs. > >> > > >> > > >>> All this said may not compare with the stringent identification > >> > > >>> procedure > >> > > >>> involved in botany / zoology. > >> > > >>> Point to drive is, here we "sincerely attempt" to identify > flora. > >> > > >>> This forum is not a ordinary place where IDs are resolved by > mere > >> > > >>> guesswork. > >> > > >>> Everyone's existence in this group proves that. > >> > > >>> Otherwise, no serious botanist would have stayed here for > another > >> > > >>> day. > >> > > >> > > >>> We are all here to find joy in finding out what we have explored > >> > > >>> in the > >> > > >>> beautiful nature around us. > >> > > >> > > >>> Personally, I have some books on flora that were easily > available > >> > > >>> to me. > >> > > >>> It includes Shrikant ji's books and Kehimkar's book. They have > >> > > >>> helped me > >> > > >>> immensely. > >> > > >>> Not to forget the inspiring Flowers of India site of dear > Tabish. > >> > > >> > > >>> Plain people do not know what is herbarium. > >> > > >>> Herbaria are not easily accessible OR available; ironically even > >> > > >>> to the > >> > > >>> botanists. > >> > > >>> And if they are accessible to plain people, it will surprise us > >> > > >>> all with > >> > > >>> what they would say, though naively: > >> > > >> > > >>> How can any one trust identification done with help of this > mashed > >> > > >>> up > >> > > >>> parts of plant ? > >> > > >> > > >>> My salutes to all the knowledgeable friends here, who patiently > >> > > >>> put their > >> > > >>> efforts time and again to identify flora which is so common to > >> > > >>> them (that > >> > > >>> includes you). > >> > > >>> Identification done of a plant that we sighted gives us great > joy. > >> > > >>> I am sure it gives joy to the person who spends some minute(s) > to > >> > > >>> guess > >> > > >>> OR some time to analyse and identify. > >> > > >> > > >>> Wishing you get lots of joy too. > >> > > >> > > >>> Regards. > >> > > >>> Dinesh > >> > > >> > > >>> On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 6:37 PM, Gurcharan Singh > >> > > >>> <[email protected]>wrote: > >> > > >> > > >>>> Dear H S > >> > > >>>> The very purpose of this group is to share photographs taken > >> > > >>>> by > >> > > >>>> different members, and exchange these photographs. The members > >> > > >>>> get their > >> > > >>>> photographs identified through experts who know these plants. I > >> > > >>>> have been > >> > > >>>> practicing taxonomy for last 40 years and have studied > herbarium > >> > > >>>> specimens > >> > > >>>> of almost all major Indian Herbaria, but I have learnt more > >> > > >>>> taxonomy in last > >> > > >>>> three years that I joined this group, and perhaps no one can > >> > > >>>> appreciate the > >> > > >>>> value of digital photographs than me. Perhaps half of our > >> > > >>>> problems would be > >> > > >>>> solved if we learn to move with the time and take benefit of > >> > > >>>> developing > >> > > >>>> technology. > >> > > >> > > >>>> If we agree to your view point that photographs are no use > for > >> > > >>>> identification, then perhaps we would have to disband this > group > >> > > >>>> of 1800 > >> > > >>>> members. At least I don't subscribe to that. After excellent > >> > > >>>> close ups by > >> > > >>>> Pankaj ji, Dinesh ji, Satish ji, I have come to believe that > >> > > >>>> perhaps a macro > >> > > >>>> of fresh flower can give more details than a under microscope > >> > > >>>> study of dried > >> > > >>>> and deformed flower. > >> > > >> > > >>>> -- > >> > > >>>> Dr. Gurcharan Singh > >> > > >>>> Retired Associate Professor > >> > > >>>> SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 > >> > > >>>> Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. > >> > > >>>> Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 > >> > > >>>>http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ > >> > > >> > > >>>> On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 6:16 PM, H S <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> > > >> > > >>>>> dear sirji, if i asked for some more details about the plants > >> > > >>>>> than what > >> > > >>>>> wrong i did, because i know that there are two more similar > >> > > >>>>> looking species > >> > > >>>>> in the same genus.. > >> > > >> > > >>>>> i never trust anyones identification done from the > photograph.. > >> > > >> > > >>>>> if group is not happy about my post than i am not interested > in > >> > > >>>>> discussing the things.. > >> > > >> > > >>>>> thanks.. > >> > > >> > > >>>>> On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 4:39 PM, Gurcharan Singh > >> > > >>>>> <[email protected]>wrote: > >> > > >> > > >>>>>> I think it would help the group if more and more experts come > >> > > >>>>>> forward > >> > > >>>>>> to share different jobs. For last so many years my self and > >> > > >>>>>> Garg ji have > >> > > >>>>>> been doing our best to resurface the pending identifications > >> > > >>>>>> and how tiring > >> > > >>>>>> this job is. Every body knows we have been giving all > previous > >> > > >>>>>> feedbacks and > >> > > >>>>>> our comments also. Seeing how difficult job it is Dinesh ji, > >> > > >>>>>> who has been > >> > > >>>>>> doing all important job for the website, (which not every one > >> > > >>>>>> can > >> > > >>>>>> appreciate). has given a lending of resurfacing. Rather than > >> > > >>>>>> appreciating > >> > > >>>>>> such efforts I find one member has chosen to find faults with > >> > > >>>>>> it. It would > >> > > >>>>>> have been more appropriate if he had found and supplemented > the > >> > > >>>>>> resurfacing > >> > > >>>>>> efforts. I have been requesting him repeatedly to take up > some > >> > > >>>>>> jobs on the > >> > > >>>>>> group. He does not want to do any job for the group, but is > >> > > >>>>>> ready to find > >> > > >>>>>> faults with every body else. His consistent lines in the > middle > >> > > >>>>>> of the > >> > > >>>>>> thread have been "I think..............................." and > >> > > >>>>>> there is not s > >> > > >>>>>> single evidence to support his conclusion. The other day he > >> > > >>>>>> wrote on the > >> > > >>>>>> group "there may be other experts on the group who can > identify > >> > > >>>>>> your > >> > > >>>>>> photographs but............................". Such type of > >> > > >>>>>> behavior only > >> > > >>>>>> spoils the atmosphere of the group. few days back when > Dinesh > >> > > >>>>>> ji shared > >> > > >>>>>> some valuable identified plants on the group, he consistently > >> > > >>>>>> asked him to > >> > > >>>>>> supply details about the plants which were already identified > >> > > >>>>>> and with > >> > > >>>>>> useful information of all regional names. I had to tell him > >> > > >>>>>> that person > >> > > >>>>>> sharing his already identified plants is only doing service > to > >> > > >>>>>> the group, > >> > > >>>>>> and every thing supplied by him is a bonus for us. If we have > >> > > >>>>>> any doubts we > >> > > >>>>>> should do our home work and if there are any doubts he should > >> > > >>>>>> share with > >> > > >>>>>> evidence. > >> > > >>>>>> I am sorry to share this in the forum, but I have tried > in > >> > > >>>>>> vain > >> > > >>>>>> that he does not spoil the harmony of the group, but it seems > >> > > >>>>>> his intrusions > >> > > >>>>>> are increasing and are not for the good of the group. I > request > >> > > >>>>>> him again > >> > > >>>>>> that is a talented person and should use this for welfare of > >> > > >>>>>> the group and > >> > > >>>>>> not spoil its harmony through his frequent non too desirable > >> > > >>>>>> utterances. > >> > > >> > > >>>>>> -- > >> > > >>>>>> Dr. Gurcharan Singh > >> > > >>>>>> Retired Associate Professor > >> > > >>>>>> SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 > >> > > >>>>>> Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. > >> > > >>>>>> Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 > >> > > >>>>>>http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ > >> > > >> > ... > >> > > >> > read more ยป > > > > > > >
