I missed this thread some how so I thought of putting my views in without actually reading all mails. Dear HS, Firstly, yes identifying plants from pics is not the actual taxonomy BUT none of us here are claiming to be taxonomists. But trust me, identifying plants from herbarium specimens or live specimens is also not taxonomy. And how many of us do have the access to the herbaria. Even the digital herbaria in kew and nybg and other places are also actually pictures. And trust me, theyc an be wrong. If you look at orchids in Kew collection, you can see I have made some changes there as well. Trust me my friend, your own herbaria, BLAT was one of the most toughest place to reach for reference few years back and I feel sorry to add that one of your own men, in Flora of Maharastra has made blunders in Orchidaceae section that I always tell them not to follow Flora of Maharastra. I have less idea about other families. All those blunders I have corrected and send them to Kew and now you can see his names as synonyms.
Taxonomy is a very vast subject and nomenclature is a small part of it. For us to interact with people who are not from botany background is not easy. So we try to use simple terms and words to communicate. I myself have been trying since beginning of my joining that common people should learn more. Please just think of few limitations of our group: 1. Here you can only share pics and not specimens. If you need specimen then you can ask the person if he or she has collected it and he or she is able to send the specimens to people across India to get it thoroughly identified. 2. To facilitate members use proper keys and literature I personally distributed pdfs of many literature. My aim was to bring people more closer to science than just identification. But yes, now that I am in Hong Kong, I cant distribute cds and dvds from here. Its very costly.. 3. When you say, SO CALLED BOTANISTS AND TAXONOMISTS, trust me there are many botanists and many taxonomists here, that includes you also. But we tend not to show because we want to keep it simple other people who are valuable members of the group. And these non-botanists valuable members form the major part of our group. This group started with 1 person and now we have more than 1700 members which is really big. Trust me, I was also like you I would say, worst that you!!! :)) when I joined (search my earlier mails, how many times I have fought !!! , and kept fighting and left three times and came back. I really had a very bad impression int he group. But I realized these limitations and I tried to be more normal that before. There are many non botanists who do better job than us, Dinesh sir, Tabish sir and shrikant sir just few examples. So trust me my friend, people like you can help us get more confirmed ids than before because we know you are a taxonomist. I have been practicing taxonomy since more than 12 years, and I have limited myself to Orchids, but I still call myself a plant explorer and not taxonomist. You are a floricist, your expertise is much wider than mine. So I would say you are far better than me. If I say, Pollinarium has a caudicle and viscidium in Aerides but there is no caudicle and viscidium in Dendrobium, trust me, more than 80% will not understand. When there is need we do share such informations. Just for example, Orchdiaceae, the key starts with the Pollinia, but I dont remember people ever sharing pics of pollinia with me. Then what should I do? I do request them some times, as few days before I had identified a plant myself as Dendrobium peguanum but I asked him to show pollinia because it can be Eria. But I was foolish, because Some different image of Eria I had in mind. We do make mistakes, its not a big deal. But we always try to correct it. I identified a plant as 1 species of Pleione few years back and then I checked again and after one year I changed the name after giving specifications. I did those corrections because like you I also believe in correct id and not just throw a name to any plant. To me you are a good and STRICT botanist. Its not an issue if the person doesnt give more details of the plant. If we cant id, then we leave it like that. But fi we id, that also is not 100% confirm unless its a very common plant. If you see Dr. Gurcharan's mail, he very often tends to write "PERHAPS", this itself means he is not confirm, I tend to add "may be". So most of our IDs are tentative ids and we keep checking. During school days when we gave exams, we were always told to REVISE once we finished writing. Here also we revise things. We revise our own ids. And if we have doubts, we put forward the details and issues. Its is a good habit. So my dear HS, cheer up and smile. and start contributing with a more cheerful mood like me :). Why I am laughing because, I was exactly like you 1.5 year back arrogant and raising questions over similar issues!!! I see me in you!! Regards Pankaj > > Particularly in a forum like this ... where we do not really know each > other.. have never met each other, and hence have really no personal > rapport or views... and write in English.. which may not be natural > or easy for most to express what they mean... > > Usha di > ====== > > On Oct 23, 7:43 pm, H S <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > i dont have any false notion, never said that i am the taxonomist or i am > > only the taxonomist,, > > > On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 8:04 PM, Gurcharan Singh <[email protected]> wrote: > > > H S > > > Why do you have these false notions. Why do you think you are the only > > > taxonomist on this forum?. You are the only one who is afraid of providing > > > supporting evidence, as you have no time for it. All of us rather supply > > > evidence from both Indian as well as foreign references. I am some times > > > surprised by what you write. > > > > -- > > > Dr. Gurcharan Singh > > > Retired Associate Professor > > > SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 > > > Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. > > > Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 > > >http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ > > > > On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 7:50 PM, H S <[email protected]> wrote: > > > >> Cant imagine, the person who said that he dont value my any post, today > > >> he > > >> is saluting me... but anyways i dont deserve it... nothing done great > > >> yet.. > > > >> If group is just dealing with sharing the photographs than its more > > >> imagination, the kind of group is going on,, but when it comes to > > >> taxonomical part,, i dont want group to just follow the things without > > >> digging up the old original Indian literatures.. > > > >> regards, > > > >> On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 7:36 PM, Dinesh Valke > > >> <[email protected]>wrote: > > > >>> Dear HS, > > > >>> We all are made to carry our own photographs in various documents to > > >>> prove our identity. > > >>> Without these we may stand to get detained from getting access to many > > >>> of > > >>> our regular routines. > > >>> Most of us also carry photos that could be some months old (funnily even > > >>> years old). > > >>> We are all the same species, yet the authorities identify us with our > > >>> photograph, normally 2" x 2". > > >>> Imagine if they start getting difficult with us saying they need to > > >>> check > > >>> our DNA, fingerprints, .... why ? because cannot trust photographs. > > > >>> All this said may not compare with the stringent identification > > >>> procedure > > >>> involved in botany / zoology. > > >>> Point to drive is, here we "sincerely attempt" to identify flora. > > >>> This forum is not a ordinary place where IDs are resolved by mere > > >>> guesswork. > > >>> Everyone's existence in this group proves that. > > >>> Otherwise, no serious botanist would have stayed here for another day. > > > >>> We are all here to find joy in finding out what we have explored in the > > >>> beautiful nature around us. > > > >>> Personally, I have some books on flora that were easily available to me. > > >>> It includes Shrikant ji's books and Kehimkar's book. They have helped me > > >>> immensely. > > >>> Not to forget the inspiring Flowers of India site of dear Tabish. > > > >>> Plain people do not know what is herbarium. > > >>> Herbaria are not easily accessible OR available; ironically even to the > > >>> botanists. > > >>> And if they are accessible to plain people, it will surprise us all with > > >>> what they would say, though naively: > > > >>> How can any one trust identification done with help of this mashed up > > >>> parts of plant ? > > > >>> My salutes to all the knowledgeable friends here, who patiently put > > >>> their > > >>> efforts time and again to identify flora which is so common to them > > >>> (that > > >>> includes you). > > >>> Identification done of a plant that we sighted gives us great joy. > > >>> I am sure it gives joy to the person who spends some minute(s) to guess > > >>> OR some time to analyse and identify. > > > >>> Wishing you get lots of joy too. > > > >>> Regards. > > >>> Dinesh > > > >>> On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 6:37 PM, Gurcharan Singh > > >>> <[email protected]>wrote: > > > >>>> Dear H S > > >>>> The very purpose of this group is to share photographs taken by > > >>>> different members, and exchange these photographs. The members get > > >>>> their > > >>>> photographs identified through experts who know these plants. I have > > >>>> been > > >>>> practicing taxonomy for last 40 years and have studied herbarium > > >>>> specimens > > >>>> of almost all major Indian Herbaria, but I have learnt more taxonomy > > >>>> in last > > >>>> three years that I joined this group, and perhaps no one can > > >>>> appreciate the > > >>>> value of digital photographs than me. Perhaps half of our problems > > >>>> would be > > >>>> solved if we learn to move with the time and take benefit of developing > > >>>> technology. > > > >>>> If we agree to your view point that photographs are no use for > > >>>> identification, then perhaps we would have to disband this group of > > >>>> 1800 > > >>>> members. At least I don't subscribe to that. After excellent close ups > > >>>> by > > >>>> Pankaj ji, Dinesh ji, Satish ji, I have come to believe that perhaps a > > >>>> macro > > >>>> of fresh flower can give more details than a under microscope study of > > >>>> dried > > >>>> and deformed flower. > > > >>>> -- > > >>>> Dr. Gurcharan Singh > > >>>> Retired Associate Professor > > >>>> SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 > > >>>> Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. > > >>>> Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 > > >>>>http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ > > > >>>> On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 6:16 PM, H S <[email protected]> wrote: > > > >>>>> dear sirji, if i asked for some more details about the plants than > > >>>>> what > > >>>>> wrong i did, because i know that there are two more similar looking > > >>>>> species > > >>>>> in the same genus.. > > > >>>>> i never trust anyones identification done from the photograph.. > > > >>>>> if group is not happy about my post than i am not interested in > > >>>>> discussing the things.. > > > >>>>> thanks.. > > > >>>>> On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 4:39 PM, Gurcharan Singh > > >>>>> <[email protected]>wrote: > > > >>>>>> I think it would help the group if more and more experts come forward > > >>>>>> to share different jobs. For last so many years my self and Garg ji > > >>>>>> have > > >>>>>> been doing our best to resurface the pending identifications and how > > >>>>>> tiring > > >>>>>> this job is. Every body knows we have been giving all previous > > >>>>>> feedbacks and > > >>>>>> our comments also. Seeing how difficult job it is Dinesh ji, who has > > >>>>>> been > > >>>>>> doing all important job for the website, (which not every one can > > >>>>>> appreciate). has given a lending of resurfacing. Rather than > > >>>>>> appreciating > > >>>>>> such efforts I find one member has chosen to find faults with it. It > > >>>>>> would > > >>>>>> have been more appropriate if he had found and supplemented the > > >>>>>> resurfacing > > >>>>>> efforts. I have been requesting him repeatedly to take up some jobs > > >>>>>> on the > > >>>>>> group. He does not want to do any job for the group, but is ready to > > >>>>>> find > > >>>>>> faults with every body else. His consistent lines in the middle of > > >>>>>> the > > >>>>>> thread have been "I think..............................." and there > > >>>>>> is not s > > >>>>>> single evidence to support his conclusion. The other day he wrote on > > >>>>>> the > > >>>>>> group "there may be other experts on the group who can identify your > > >>>>>> photographs but............................". Such type of > > >>>>>> behavior only > > >>>>>> spoils the atmosphere of the group. few days back when Dinesh ji > > >>>>>> shared > > >>>>>> some valuable identified plants on the group, he consistently asked > > >>>>>> him to > > >>>>>> supply details about the plants which were already identified and > > >>>>>> with > > >>>>>> useful information of all regional names. I had to tell him that > > >>>>>> person > > >>>>>> sharing his already identified plants is only doing service to the > > >>>>>> group, > > >>>>>> and every thing supplied by him is a bonus for us. If we have any > > >>>>>> doubts we > > >>>>>> should do our home work and if there are any doubts he should share > > >>>>>> with > > >>>>>> evidence. > > >>>>>> I am sorry to share this in the forum, but I have tried in vain > > >>>>>> that he does not spoil the harmony of the group, but it seems his > > >>>>>> intrusions > > >>>>>> are increasing and are not for the good of the group. I request him > > >>>>>> again > > >>>>>> that is a talented person and should use this for welfare of the > > >>>>>> group and > > >>>>>> not spoil its harmony through his frequent non too desirable > > >>>>>> utterances. > > > >>>>>> -- > > >>>>>> Dr. Gurcharan Singh > > >>>>>> Retired Associate Professor > > >>>>>> SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 > > >>>>>> Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. > > >>>>>> Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 > > >>>>>>http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ > > ... > > read more »
