Pankaj ji I think we have fought the most, but tell me why I am becoming a fan of yours increasingly?. I have the answer but perhaps I want you to guess.
-- Dr. Gurcharan Singh Retired Associate Professor SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 9:24 AM, Dr Pankaj Kumar <[email protected]>wrote: > I missed this thread some how so I thought of putting my views in > without actually reading all mails. > Dear HS, Firstly, yes identifying plants from pics is not the actual > taxonomy BUT none of us here are claiming to be taxonomists. > But trust me, identifying plants from herbarium specimens or live > specimens is also not taxonomy. And how many of us do have the access > to the herbaria. Even the digital herbaria in kew and nybg and other > places are also actually pictures. And trust me, theyc an be wrong. If > you look at orchids in Kew collection, you can see I have made some > changes there as well. Trust me my friend, your own herbaria, BLAT was > one of the most toughest place to reach for reference few years back > and I feel sorry to add that one of your own men, in Flora of > Maharastra has made blunders in Orchidaceae section that I always tell > them not to follow Flora of Maharastra. I have less idea about other > families. All those blunders I have corrected and send them to Kew and > now you can see his names as synonyms. > > Taxonomy is a very vast subject and nomenclature is a small part of > it. For us to interact with people who are not from botany background > is not easy. So we try to use simple terms and words to communicate. I > myself have been trying since beginning of my joining that common > people should learn more. > > Please just think of few limitations of our group: > 1. Here you can only share pics and not specimens. If you need > specimen then you can ask the person if he or she has collected it and > he or she is able to send the specimens to people across India to get > it thoroughly identified. > 2. To facilitate members use proper keys and literature I personally > distributed pdfs of many literature. My aim was to bring people more > closer to science than just identification. But yes, now that I am in > Hong Kong, I cant distribute cds and dvds from here. Its very costly.. > 3. When you say, SO CALLED BOTANISTS AND TAXONOMISTS, trust me there > are many botanists and many taxonomists here, that includes you also. > But we tend not to show because we want to keep it simple other people > who are valuable members of the group. And these non-botanists > valuable members form the major part of our group. This group started > with 1 person and now we have more than 1700 members which is really > big. > > Trust me, I was also like you I would say, worst that you!!! :)) when > I joined (search my earlier mails, how many times I have fought !!! , > and kept fighting and left three times and came back. I really had a > very bad impression int he group. But I realized these limitations and > I tried to be more normal that before. There are many non botanists > who do better job than us, Dinesh sir, Tabish sir and shrikant sir > just few examples. > > So trust me my friend, people like you can help us get more confirmed > ids than before because we know you are a taxonomist. I have been > practicing taxonomy since more than 12 years, and I have limited > myself to Orchids, but I still call myself a plant explorer and not > taxonomist. You are a floricist, your expertise is much wider than > mine. So I would say you are far better than me. If I say, Pollinarium > has a caudicle and viscidium in Aerides but there is no caudicle and > viscidium in Dendrobium, trust me, more than 80% will not understand. > When there is need we do share such informations. > > Just for example, Orchdiaceae, the key starts with the Pollinia, but I > dont remember people ever sharing pics of pollinia with me. Then what > should I do? I do request them some times, as few days before I had > identified a plant myself as Dendrobium peguanum but I asked him to > show pollinia because it can be Eria. But I was foolish, because Some > different image of Eria I had in mind. We do make mistakes, its not a > big deal. But we always try to correct it. I identified a plant as 1 > species of Pleione few years back and then I checked again and after > one year I changed the name after giving specifications. I did those > corrections because like you I also believe in correct id and not just > throw a name to any plant. > > To me you are a good and STRICT botanist. Its not an issue if the > person doesnt give more details of the plant. If we cant id, then we > leave it like that. But fi we id, that also is not 100% confirm unless > its a very common plant. If you see Dr. Gurcharan's mail, he very > often tends to write "PERHAPS", this itself means he is not confirm, I > tend to add "may be". So most of our IDs are tentative ids and we keep > checking. > > During school days when we gave exams, we were always told to REVISE > once we finished writing. Here also we revise things. We revise our > own ids. And if we have doubts, we put forward the details and issues. > Its is a good habit. > > So my dear HS, cheer up and smile. and start contributing with a more > cheerful mood like me :). Why I am laughing because, I was exactly > like you 1.5 year back arrogant and raising questions over similar > issues!!! I see me in you!! > > Regards > Pankaj > > > > > > > Particularly in a forum like this ... where we do not really know each > > other.. have never met each other, and hence have really no personal > > rapport or views... and write in English.. which may not be natural > > or easy for most to express what they mean... > > > > Usha di > > ====== > > > > On Oct 23, 7:43 pm, H S <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i dont have any false notion, never said that i am the taxonomist or i > am > > > only the taxonomist,, > > > > > On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 8:04 PM, Gurcharan Singh <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > H S > > > > Why do you have these false notions. Why do you think you are the > only > > > > taxonomist on this forum?. You are the only one who is afraid of > providing > > > > supporting evidence, as you have no time for it. All of us rather > supply > > > > evidence from both Indian as well as foreign references. I am some > times > > > > surprised by what you write. > > > > > > -- > > > > Dr. Gurcharan Singh > > > > Retired Associate Professor > > > > SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 > > > > Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. > > > > Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 > > > >http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ > > > > > > On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 7:50 PM, H S <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > >> Cant imagine, the person who said that he dont value my any post, > today he > > > >> is saluting me... but anyways i dont deserve it... nothing done > great yet.. > > > > > >> If group is just dealing with sharing the photographs than its more > > > >> imagination, the kind of group is going on,, but when it comes to > > > >> taxonomical part,, i dont want group to just follow the things > without > > > >> digging up the old original Indian literatures.. > > > > > >> regards, > > > > > >> On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 7:36 PM, Dinesh Valke < > [email protected]>wrote: > > > > > >>> Dear HS, > > > > > >>> We all are made to carry our own photographs in various documents > to > > > >>> prove our identity. > > > >>> Without these we may stand to get detained from getting access to > many of > > > >>> our regular routines. > > > >>> Most of us also carry photos that could be some months old (funnily > even > > > >>> years old). > > > >>> We are all the same species, yet the authorities identify us with > our > > > >>> photograph, normally 2" x 2". > > > >>> Imagine if they start getting difficult with us saying they need to > check > > > >>> our DNA, fingerprints, .... why ? because cannot trust photographs. > > > > > >>> All this said may not compare with the stringent identification > procedure > > > >>> involved in botany / zoology. > > > >>> Point to drive is, here we "sincerely attempt" to identify flora. > > > >>> This forum is not a ordinary place where IDs are resolved by mere > > > >>> guesswork. > > > >>> Everyone's existence in this group proves that. > > > >>> Otherwise, no serious botanist would have stayed here for another > day. > > > > > >>> We are all here to find joy in finding out what we have explored in > the > > > >>> beautiful nature around us. > > > > > >>> Personally, I have some books on flora that were easily available > to me. > > > >>> It includes Shrikant ji's books and Kehimkar's book. They have > helped me > > > >>> immensely. > > > >>> Not to forget the inspiring Flowers of India site of dear Tabish. > > > > > >>> Plain people do not know what is herbarium. > > > >>> Herbaria are not easily accessible OR available; ironically even to > the > > > >>> botanists. > > > >>> And if they are accessible to plain people, it will surprise us all > with > > > >>> what they would say, though naively: > > > > > >>> How can any one trust identification done with help of this mashed > up > > > >>> parts of plant ? > > > > > >>> My salutes to all the knowledgeable friends here, who patiently put > their > > > >>> efforts time and again to identify flora which is so common to them > (that > > > >>> includes you). > > > >>> Identification done of a plant that we sighted gives us great joy. > > > >>> I am sure it gives joy to the person who spends some minute(s) to > guess > > > >>> OR some time to analyse and identify. > > > > > >>> Wishing you get lots of joy too. > > > > > >>> Regards. > > > >>> Dinesh > > > > > >>> On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 6:37 PM, Gurcharan Singh < > [email protected]>wrote: > > > > > >>>> Dear H S > > > >>>> The very purpose of this group is to share photographs taken by > > > >>>> different members, and exchange these photographs. The members get > their > > > >>>> photographs identified through experts who know these plants. I > have been > > > >>>> practicing taxonomy for last 40 years and have studied herbarium > specimens > > > >>>> of almost all major Indian Herbaria, but I have learnt more > taxonomy in last > > > >>>> three years that I joined this group, and perhaps no one can > appreciate the > > > >>>> value of digital photographs than me. Perhaps half of our problems > would be > > > >>>> solved if we learn to move with the time and take benefit of > developing > > > >>>> technology. > > > > > >>>> If we agree to your view point that photographs are no use for > > > >>>> identification, then perhaps we would have to disband this group > of 1800 > > > >>>> members. At least I don't subscribe to that. After excellent close > ups by > > > >>>> Pankaj ji, Dinesh ji, Satish ji, I have come to believe that > perhaps a macro > > > >>>> of fresh flower can give more details than a under microscope > study of dried > > > >>>> and deformed flower. > > > > > >>>> -- > > > >>>> Dr. Gurcharan Singh > > > >>>> Retired Associate Professor > > > >>>> SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 > > > >>>> Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. > > > >>>> Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 > > > >>>>http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ > > > > > >>>> On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 6:16 PM, H S <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > >>>>> dear sirji, if i asked for some more details about the plants > than what > > > >>>>> wrong i did, because i know that there are two more similar > looking species > > > >>>>> in the same genus.. > > > > > >>>>> i never trust anyones identification done from the photograph.. > > > > > >>>>> if group is not happy about my post than i am not interested in > > > >>>>> discussing the things.. > > > > > >>>>> thanks.. > > > > > >>>>> On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 4:39 PM, Gurcharan Singh < > [email protected]>wrote: > > > > > >>>>>> I think it would help the group if more and more experts come > forward > > > >>>>>> to share different jobs. For last so many years my self and Garg > ji have > > > >>>>>> been doing our best to resurface the pending identifications and > how tiring > > > >>>>>> this job is. Every body knows we have been giving all previous > feedbacks and > > > >>>>>> our comments also. Seeing how difficult job it is Dinesh ji, who > has been > > > >>>>>> doing all important job for the website, (which not every one > can > > > >>>>>> appreciate). has given a lending of resurfacing. Rather than > appreciating > > > >>>>>> such efforts I find one member has chosen to find faults with > it. It would > > > >>>>>> have been more appropriate if he had found and supplemented the > resurfacing > > > >>>>>> efforts. I have been requesting him repeatedly to take up some > jobs on the > > > >>>>>> group. He does not want to do any job for the group, but is > ready to find > > > >>>>>> faults with every body else. His consistent lines in the middle > of the > > > >>>>>> thread have been "I think..............................." and > there is not s > > > >>>>>> single evidence to support his conclusion. The other day he > wrote on the > > > >>>>>> group "there may be other experts on the group who can identify > your > > > >>>>>> photographs but............................". Such type of > behavior only > > > >>>>>> spoils the atmosphere of the group. few days back when Dinesh > ji shared > > > >>>>>> some valuable identified plants on the group, he consistently > asked him to > > > >>>>>> supply details about the plants which were already identified > and with > > > >>>>>> useful information of all regional names. I had to tell him that > person > > > >>>>>> sharing his already identified plants is only doing service to > the group, > > > >>>>>> and every thing supplied by him is a bonus for us. If we have > any doubts we > > > >>>>>> should do our home work and if there are any doubts he should > share with > > > >>>>>> evidence. > > > >>>>>> I am sorry to share this in the forum, but I have tried in > vain > > > >>>>>> that he does not spoil the harmony of the group, but it seems > his intrusions > > > >>>>>> are increasing and are not for the good of the group. I request > him again > > > >>>>>> that is a talented person and should use this for welfare of the > group and > > > >>>>>> not spoil its harmony through his frequent non too desirable > utterances. > > > > > >>>>>> -- > > > >>>>>> Dr. Gurcharan Singh > > > >>>>>> Retired Associate Professor > > > >>>>>> SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 > > > >>>>>> Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. > > > >>>>>> Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 > > > >>>>>>http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ > > > > ... > > > > read more ยป
