At 03:01 PM 4/20/99 -0700, Riyad Kalla wrote:
>My intent here is not to stirr up emotions or cause an argument.
Good. I don't think any of us want to see that mess start up again.
> But after 12 unanswered emails I feel I have a right to comment.
Feel free to comment. Unanswered emails shouldn't make a difference.
>And I don't have patients for flames over this, so please don't send them.
ok. I wont.
>If you were in my shoes you'd be as frustrated.
How so? You're multi-billion dollar international corporation is staking
it's bottom line on java2 for Linux? You were asssigned a project and sold
your prof on the idea of doing it on Linux and in Java, but absolutely
_have_ to have the latest and greatest whiz-bang features of Java2?
Sorry, no sympathy here for either case....
We're all in the same shoes here: we see others playing with Java2 on
crappy OSs like NT, or expensive boxes like Sparcs, and we want our
beloved Tux to be able to play with them . . . but we'll just have to
wait; java development isn't like other linuxian projects. It isn't
OSS, it isn't GPL, it isn't something anyone can go out and grab the
sources to and hack. It can't be.
>Is anyone else a bit disappointed and/or concerned about Blackdown's
>progress with JDK1.2?
umm... no, not really. I don't think I represent a small segment of the
Java world when I say "give me stability over new features". Or worded
differently (from a bug traq on the JDC) "stop dreaming up new APIs and
finish fixing the ones you dreamt up last release". Things as important
as the JDK and the JVM need to be thought of like the Linux kernel...
a stable version and a development version - always. Right now Java2 is
the development version, the stable version is 1.1.
>I find no other means of seeing where the current project stands
>because the only information posted on the website is more than
>a month old
and your point is.... I have in my bookmarks a webpage for the updated
status on a project I work on, the last modified date on this web page is
now 2 1/2 months old, but the information is current, as of this second.
What connection is there between the two... none. When there is a change
in the status Steve, or someone, will put it on the web page - odds are
they'll also announce it right here on this list.
> and all my inquiries about it over the last few weeks
>have all gone unheeded.
Did you read the third paragraph of the status page? Have you read the
FAQ? Have you looked in the archives? People are sick of answering this
question when the answer is in all three locations - to the point of
ignoring the question and/or filtering the address from their inbox.
> I find their efforts worth noting,
I am _SO_ sure that what you _meant_ to say and how I read that are
two completely different things that I'm not even going into it further.
> but
>when I've asked this question in the past I get the response of
>"do it yourself if your so anxious" which I find amazingly stupid
>and a waste of time. What goes into porting Java to Linux?
A hell of a lot goes into porting anything as massive as the JVM from
any platform to any other dis-similar platform. If you want a minimal
example... go get the sources to something like the socket library (note,
I only said the socket library, not the entire net library) from your
favorite (non-linux) Unix (i.e. Solaris, AIX, VMS) and port it to Linux.
You'll find your self digging into not only the Linux kernel and the rest
of the standard libraries, but also the libraries and kernel of the source
platform (of which you probably don't have source)... now imagine that
those other portions of the standard library (like the rest of net) that
you had to go look at inorder to bring socket over were _also_ on your
plate to port over, so you _can't_ go look into them to see how they
use your piece or how the pieces of them you use work. And that would
only be one pseudo-piece of the JVM.
>I admit I am not farmiliar with the process, however I would still like
>an up to date record of their current progress.
http://www.cc.gatech.edu/linux/java-linux/java-linux/jck-status.html
that's the mirror I use (though it's not listed in the mirror list
anymore??) Any thing more detailed than that would (I suspect) be
in violation of The Agreement. I can admit that a test-by-test status
would be nice for those understanding the JCK, and maybe informative
for those who don't ... but therein lies the rub. For example; the
project I work on has one automated test bucket that has over 10,000
variations in it, and we have a set of tools that generate nice neat
html pages sumarizing the results ... but we don't make that available
outside the project becuase people don't need to know that we have a
big/corp/proj/foo.bar(I)B; method, and that we test if it can handle
-99 as input. (very arbitrary example, but I think the point is clear)
>Does anyone know if there is a work on Sun's behalf to do the
>port themselves in the future or atleast carry Blackdown along a
>little faster?
HA-HA! Oh that's a good one!! :) I thought you wanted the port done?
Now you ask if Sun's got any plans to take it over?!?! Oh, I'm laughing
so hard it hurts. I've read statements (on this list no less) describing
some of the help from Sun to blackdown.org . . . so far I'd say we're
getting better support/assistance than any other non-comercial platform.
I was just tickled pink to hear about the agreement, and short of some
_other_ commercial licencee pitching in (which I don't even think is
legal) I think blackdown.org is getting more support than anyone
seriously thought possible.
>I've seen this question asked before on this mailing list, but do
>not remember a reply ever being issued.
There have been many, most not repeatable in mixed company ... then there's
the set that's been sent.... Basically the summary I've gleaned from reading
between the lines is: "There is a beta out, when there is noticable progress
another will appear and it will be announced on this list. In between the
overall progress of the JCK will be charted on the web. This will repeat
untill one is golden; then it will be released as version 1. then the whole
thing will repeat." Of course that describes most all _volunteer_ linux
development work. ;)
I think the big piece of the picture you (and a lot of other people) are
either missing, or not realising the significance of, is that the porting
team is (I think) a couple dozen people, working in their spare time on six
different ports. After working a normal day job, coming home to the family
and taking care of household responsibilities they go hit the porting work
for a while. They're volunteers. If you (or anyone else) was putting up
a serious chunk of change for this port then they'd have the right to be
"a bit disappointed and/or concerned about Blackdown's progress with
JDK1.2?". No one is. Sun is - if my memory serves - making two engineers
available to work on the port (I doubt that's two _dedicated_ people)
but I believe that's the end of the list of people getting paid for this
work. -=Chris
!NEW!-=> <*> cabbey at home dot net http://members.home.net/cabbey/ <*>
"What can Microsoft do? They certainly can't program around us." - Linus
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