Well stated. I congratulate you on your directness
and your level-headedness.
Vann
--
Vann Hasty
Evans & Sutherland
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chris Abbey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 1999 10:13 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: ...
>
>
> At 03:01 PM 4/20/99 -0700, Riyad Kalla wrote:
> >My intent here is not to stirr up emotions or cause an argument.
>
> Good. I don't think any of us want to see that mess start up again.
>
> > But after 12 unanswered emails I feel I have a right to comment.
>
> Feel free to comment. Unanswered emails shouldn't make a difference.
>
> >And I don't have patients for flames over this, so please
> don't send them.
>
> ok. I wont.
>
> >If you were in my shoes you'd be as frustrated.
>
> How so? You're multi-billion dollar international corporation
> is staking
> it's bottom line on java2 for Linux? You were asssigned a
> project and sold
> your prof on the idea of doing it on Linux and in Java, but absolutely
> _have_ to have the latest and greatest whiz-bang features of Java2?
> Sorry, no sympathy here for either case....
>
> We're all in the same shoes here: we see others playing with Java2 on
> crappy OSs like NT, or expensive boxes like Sparcs, and we want our
> beloved Tux to be able to play with them . . . but we'll just have to
> wait; java development isn't like other linuxian projects. It isn't
> OSS, it isn't GPL, it isn't something anyone can go out and grab the
> sources to and hack. It can't be.
>
> >Is anyone else a bit disappointed and/or concerned about Blackdown's
> >progress with JDK1.2?
>
> umm... no, not really. I don't think I represent a small
> segment of the
> Java world when I say "give me stability over new features". Or worded
> differently (from a bug traq on the JDC) "stop dreaming up
> new APIs and
> finish fixing the ones you dreamt up last release". Things as
> important
> as the JDK and the JVM need to be thought of like the Linux kernel...
> a stable version and a development version - always. Right
> now Java2 is
> the development version, the stable version is 1.1.
>
> >I find no other means of seeing where the current project stands
> >because the only information posted on the website is more than
> >a month old
>
> and your point is.... I have in my bookmarks a webpage for
> the updated
> status on a project I work on, the last modified date on this
> web page is
> now 2 1/2 months old, but the information is current, as of
> this second.
> What connection is there between the two... none. When there
> is a change
> in the status Steve, or someone, will put it on the web page
> - odds are
> they'll also announce it right here on this list.
>
> > and all my inquiries about it over the last few weeks
> >have all gone unheeded.
>
> Did you read the third paragraph of the status page? Have you read the
> FAQ? Have you looked in the archives? People are sick of
> answering this
> question when the answer is in all three locations - to the point of
> ignoring the question and/or filtering the address from their inbox.
>
> > I find their efforts worth noting,
>
> I am _SO_ sure that what you _meant_ to say and how I read that are
> two completely different things that I'm not even going into
> it further.
>
> > but
> >when I've asked this question in the past I get the response of
> >"do it yourself if your so anxious" which I find amazingly stupid
> >and a waste of time. What goes into porting Java to Linux?
>
> A hell of a lot goes into porting anything as massive as the JVM from
> any platform to any other dis-similar platform. If you want a minimal
> example... go get the sources to something like the socket
> library (note,
> I only said the socket library, not the entire net library) from your
> favorite (non-linux) Unix (i.e. Solaris, AIX, VMS) and port
> it to Linux.
> You'll find your self digging into not only the Linux kernel
> and the rest
> of the standard libraries, but also the libraries and kernel
> of the source
> platform (of which you probably don't have source)... now imagine that
> those other portions of the standard library (like the rest
> of net) that
> you had to go look at inorder to bring socket over were _also_ on your
> plate to port over, so you _can't_ go look into them to see how they
> use your piece or how the pieces of them you use work. And that would
> only be one pseudo-piece of the JVM.
>
> >I admit I am not farmiliar with the process, however I would
> still like
> >an up to date record of their current progress.
>
> http://www.cc.gatech.edu/linux/java-linux/java-linux/jck-status.html
>
> that's the mirror I use (though it's not listed in the mirror list
> anymore??) Any thing more detailed than that would (I suspect) be
> in violation of The Agreement. I can admit that a test-by-test status
> would be nice for those understanding the JCK, and maybe informative
> for those who don't ... but therein lies the rub. For example; the
> project I work on has one automated test bucket that has over 10,000
> variations in it, and we have a set of tools that generate nice neat
> html pages sumarizing the results ... but we don't make that available
> outside the project becuase people don't need to know that we have a
> big/corp/proj/foo.bar(I)B; method, and that we test if it can handle
> -99 as input. (very arbitrary example, but I think the point is clear)
>
> >Does anyone know if there is a work on Sun's behalf to do the
> >port themselves in the future or atleast carry Blackdown along a
> >little faster?
>
> HA-HA! Oh that's a good one!! :) I thought you wanted the port done?
> Now you ask if Sun's got any plans to take it over?!?! Oh,
> I'm laughing
> so hard it hurts. I've read statements (on this list no less)
> describing
> some of the help from Sun to blackdown.org . . . so far I'd say we're
> getting better support/assistance than any other
> non-comercial platform.
> I was just tickled pink to hear about the agreement, and short of some
> _other_ commercial licencee pitching in (which I don't even think is
> legal) I think blackdown.org is getting more support than anyone
> seriously thought possible.
>
> >I've seen this question asked before on this mailing list, but do
> >not remember a reply ever being issued.
>
> There have been many, most not repeatable in mixed company
> ... then there's
> the set that's been sent.... Basically the summary I've
> gleaned from reading
> between the lines is: "There is a beta out, when there is
> noticable progress
> another will appear and it will be announced on this list. In
> between the
> overall progress of the JCK will be charted on the web. This
> will repeat
> untill one is golden; then it will be released as version 1.
> then the whole
> thing will repeat." Of course that describes most all
> _volunteer_ linux
> development work. ;)
>
> I think the big piece of the picture you (and a lot of other
> people) are
> either missing, or not realising the significance of, is that
> the porting
> team is (I think) a couple dozen people, working in their
> spare time on six
> different ports. After working a normal day job, coming home
> to the family
> and taking care of household responsibilities they go hit the
> porting work
> for a while. They're volunteers. If you (or anyone else) was
> putting up
> a serious chunk of change for this port then they'd have the
> right to be
> "a bit disappointed and/or concerned about Blackdown's progress with
> JDK1.2?". No one is. Sun is - if my memory serves - making
> two engineers
> available to work on the port (I doubt that's two _dedicated_ people)
> but I believe that's the end of the list of people getting
> paid for this
> work. -=Chris
>
> !NEW!-=> <*> cabbey at home dot net
> http://members.home.net/cabbey/ <*>
> "What can Microsoft do?
> They certainly can't program around us." - Linus
>
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