Ken McNeil wrote:
>
> I have been programming in Java for over a year, using it mainly because of
> its technical merits but also because it seemed to be the "anti-Microsoft".
> >From the beginning I had the utmost respect for Sun and their mission to
> build Java into the greatest thing since sliced bread. Yet, lately I am
> sensing that it may not be wise to rely on Sun alone to deliver a
> programming language based on the Java vision. There are several reasons for
> this:
Only lately ?
> 1 - Sun has been unable to keep up with the demands of the developer
> community with timely bug fixes and language extensions. One only has to
> peruse through the "Bug Parade" at the JDC to see that the voice of the
> developer has gone mainly unheard while Sun's Java licensees have been able
> to work with Sun to create new APIs. Some examples of those things we are
> waiting to see are: generic programming (aka parameterized types and
> templates), regular expressions, and fixes for the mile high stack of bugs
> that we have all submitted and Sun has not addressed (or they fixed it six
> months later).
I'll second you on the bugs issue and the problem with Suns 1001 API's
approach. However to be fair you probably picked a bad eg. with
parametric types as Sun has just put up a proposal for them.
> 2 - With the recent news that Sun is backing out of their 2 1/2 year old
> plans to make Java an open standard through ISO one wonders what their real
> objectives have been all this time.* They claim that this is because of
> Microsoft's lobbying but there seems to be more. Sun has been trying to
> maintain its death grip on Java and still make it an open standard. These
> ideas mix like oil and water. For this reason I support ISO's choice to not
> allow Java to be standardized under such terms.
I hadn't heard that Sun abandoned getting standardisation from ISO, but
given their appraoch I'm hardly surprised. And ISO is right to reject
Suns have my cake & eat it attitude to standardisation.
> 3 - Sun has yet to truly deliver on the prospect of an open-source/free
> Java. Though they have given the developer community free access to the
> source they have not moved to the model of free software (free referring to
> freedom not price). I will not reiterate the advantages that a truly
> open-source/free Java would bring because they are widely known.
Yes - hopefully nobody is fooled by Sun's SCL-marketing dreams.
> 4 - There seems to be a conflict of interest within Sun, they are torn
> between making Java a true cross-platform language by insuring that good VMs
> are available on all platforms and making Solaris the best platform for
> Java. This should come as no surprise since Sun is a corporation and their
> stock holders would expect them to do this. This is not however in the best
> interest of Java or the developers relying on its abilities to live up to
> its specification. This is a general problem with any technology that is
> controlled by a for profit organization.
>
> With this said the question arises: What can we do? I believe that there are
> two options: move forward with or without Sun.
>
> Without Sun - Members of the Java and open-source could develop and
> alternative under the GPL. Though this idea has been thrown around by the
> media there are no traces of a significant movement to accomplish such a
> feat. Unlike projects like Classpath and the various VMs this would be a
> different language outside of the control of Sun and their license and
> compatibility tests.
This is where I can't agree with you. There isn't any need for a Java
alternative because there is _nothing_ fundementally wrong with Java -
only _implementations_ of it. However this is slowly being overcome - I
would suggest that if you want to see a good quality Java implementation
that you contribute to one of the free alternatives
kaffe/japhar+classpath/etc. Even if you have been crippled by signing
Suns licensing - you can at least run the programs maybe send in bugs
fixes, write test scripts, docs, whatever.
IMHO you're suggestion of an alternative to Java (I guess you mean the
whole platform - ie. langauge,VM & class lib API) is on the same level
as M$'s latest announcement of their alternative to Java (I forget its
name - "Magic" or something like that).
> With Sun - Java developers can throw a "hissy fit" over the ISO fiasco, and
> other issues, in an attempt to raise further awareness within Sun. The focus
> of this movement would have to be moving Java to a truly open model not just
> having some organization certify Java as a standard (that is not good
> enough). There have been plenty of complaints about Sun out there but I am
> speaking of something much larger. The sort of negative media attention that
> would make Sun look like Microsoft and thus force them to take some action.
> I believe that it is possible for this to happen given the spot light that
> has been placed on the open-source community by the media (all we need is
> one quote from Linus and too say that it has a lot to do with Linux -
> buzzwords!).
Well you can try this approach, but I doubt it will acheive what you
want. Java has been hyped no end, but in the end alot of people use it
and genuinely LIKE using it because it is a very nice way to develop
programs (I'm certainly a convert to java from the C camp).
> I personally believe that we should move forward without Sun. Even if Java
> is a "perfect" solution for you the competition would be a positive
> consequence of the effort. And like the media attention this would raise
> Sun's awareness and they would fear that their powerful position could be
> compromised. Of course there is also the likely prospect that the effort
> would succeed and all our prayers would be answered.
>
> So what do you think?
I think I (and probably alot of other people) have spent alot of time
and effort learning java, writing apps in java and are happy with java.
I for one am more then happy with java and would rather work on
improving its implementations then expending what would be need to be
_huge_ amounts of resources on the of chance of coming up with something
comparable. Such an effort would not be an answer to any of my prayers.
Well having critised, its only fair for me to put forward an alternative
suggestion: Move ahead with STANDARDISATION WITHOUT Sun. Surely its
possible for ANSI/ISO to produce a standard without Sun. The API's,JVM
& langauge specs are all published - only Java(tm)(c)(whatever) really
is Suns property - so why not have the ANSI/ISO "J" standard, which
just happens to be based on Suns Java.
Now I admit I'm to young to know first hand what happened with C, but
from what I've read K&R invented C, lots of people used/implemented it,
ANSI after alot of work made a Standard for C that was a bit different
from the original that everyone now uses (admittedly this is very
simplified view of history).
So can someone tell me why there can't be a ANSi/ISO standard for J,
that defines the langauge, VM and core libraries just like there is
already for C (and now even C++) ?!?!
Surely there must be enough interested corporates (IBM,HP,etc) if not
small companies and developers who want to see this happen.
Maksim Lin.
--
Remember Darwin; building a better mousetrap merely results in smarter
mice.
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