first, let me thank John for such a forthwright apology and explanation.
very gracious and graciously accepted.
now, on to the meat of what he talks about.
yes, it can be frustrating when companies dont respond. there is nothing
we can do about that. fwiw, 3Dfx last year was in its death-throes. the
head didnt realize the body was dead yet and that may explain, but not
excuse, their actions.
however, we just cannot give up. as General Stillwell said,
"Illegitimati non carborundum", losely translated as "dont let the
bastards wear you down". I used that as a .sig line for a while because
it suits this business well, that of using bleeding-edge hardware to
perform bleeding-edge multimedia development.
yes, it takes time to isolate a bug and provide a small repro sample.
however, I can say that doing just that really does help. lacking an
ability to repro a particular bug the folk at the shop in question do
have a hard time gaining traction.
finally, I am but an egg, as Valentine Michael Smith said, when it comes
to IE and the versions, licensing, etc. Thats the download we have, I
dont know anything about a "Full" version of IE or what that would be.
Cant help there.
lets move on.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Wright [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Friday, May 18, 2001 12:38 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: [JAVA3D] Fog (Linear) Differing Results
>
>
> Philip, I'm sure Microsoft employs MANY fine people and I for one
> greatly appreciate your participation on this forum. I didn't intend
> any blame toward you (or Microsoft). I was simply pointing
> out how very
> often our contact with various companies leads us to be less than
> enthusiastic about trying to report bugs. I've been
> reporting bugs for
> nearly twenty years now because I care about the quality of our
> industry. It takes a lot of time to test and isolate a bug to try and
> make an accurate report rather than just blaming the most convenient
> company available.
>
> I apologize if I offended you by using Microsoft as an example. Last
> year I reported a driver bug to 3dfx and while their response
> was polite
> (yes we know about this bug) it was over six months later before they
> had it fixed (and no feedback to us to let us know they finally fixed
> it). Not offensive but not terribly encouraging either.
>
> Your advice is excellent Philip and I agree completely that we should
> all try and report bugs as much as we can. However I also believe in
> doing as much testing as possible so that our reports are as useful as
> possible and aren't targeting the wrong product for being
> faulty. Every
> once in a while I send (generic) bug reports to Sun just to let them
> know not everything is working perfectly, but if at all possible I try
> to create test programs or otherwise isolate the bug as best
> as possible
> given the information we have.
>
> And thank you again for the excellent information about fog, I'm sure
> Sun's engineers can use that information. I hope you continue to
> provide such valuable information so that we all benefit from a better
> Java 3D product.
>
> - John Wright
> Starfire Research
> P.S. Philip - Thank you again, but the link you provided,
> http://www.microsoft.com/windows/ie/ , is the same link I originally
> started out with before contacting Microsoft and is the same link they
> recommended to me several times before I managed to get them to
> understand that only downloads "ie5setup.exe" which is only
> 499K and is
> NOT a full install of IE (I need to be able to install it on a machine
> that doesn't have Internet access to do some testing on a customer's
> intranet). Since IE 5 isn't available they are continuing
> with Netscape
> as a corporate standard.
>
> Philip Taylor wrote:
> >
> > MS is a large company. I work in DirectX. I try to be helpful wrt
> > DirectX. I have a reputation for that, and have been doing
> that for as
> > long as there has been a Direct3D. Thats my thing. I cant
> be responsible
> > for any actions other than my own.
> >
> > I tried to be helpful here in relation to 3D; specifically
> fog behavior
> > and driver bugs. I repeat that the single biggest thing we can do to
> > influence 3D driver bugs is to have a relationship with the
> 3D chipset
> > IHVs and consistently report bugs to them. Since I work
> regularly with
> > the IHV dev-rel folk, I can assure you that in this area
> folk do believe
> > the dictum "we are all in this together" and work to
> correct issues that
> > are brought to their attention.
> >
> > You can take this information in the spirit it was offered,
> eg to help
> > everyone with what I have learned in 5 years of working
> with hardware
> > rendering, or not. Unfortunately, you took this opportunity
> to rant. I
> > fail to see how anything related to your interaction with
> IE is topical
> > to 3D driver bugs and IHV relations except it relates to
> your personal
> > experience in reporting a bug on an MS product and I happen
> to be an MS
> > person responding on a public forum. Thats a tenuous
> relation at best.
> >
> > Sorry about your experience, but please, next time lets
> stay on topic. I
> > respond here with good information on D3D ( check the
> archives, I have
> > been doing this for several years now ) in the spirit of helping to
> > ensure that the J3D D3D implementation is the best it can
> be. Thats all
> > I personally can do. Blaming me for the actions of others
> at MS helps
> > J3D how? It helps resolve this issue how? Deciding to not
> report bugs
> > because of any bad experience with any vendor ( be it software or
> > hardware ) helps fix the bug, helps your product, or helps
> the community
> > how?
> >
> > FWIW, searching off http://msdn.microsoft.com, the
> developer gateway,
> > yields many hits on "ie download". One of which is
> > http://www.microsoft.com/windows/ie/. I do believe from
> there you can
> > download IE 5.5. And I dont believe that link just popped
> up recently.
> > MSDN is a goodness.
> >
> > PS. If its not obvious, I do strenuously object to this rant.
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: John Wright [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > > Sent: Friday, May 18, 2001 4:51 AM
> > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Subject: Re: [JAVA3D] Fog (Linear) Differing Results
> > >
> > >
> > > Philip, you don't mind if I rant for a second do you?
> > >
> > > As you said "report all driver bugs" or more generically
> "report all
> > > bugs". But there is a flip side of this too. The
> companies need to
> > > listen to the bugs that are reported. Many companies deal with
> > > customers so poorly that we lose our motivation to take
> the time to
> > > report anything.
> > >
> > > I recently had such an encounter with Microsoft. I
> wanted to download
> > > the latest version of Internet Explorer (last known to be a FREE
> > > product). Contacting Microsoft I tried to point out that
> > > there isn't a
> > > link on their website to obtain IE. After several e-mail
> exchanges
> > > (give Microsoft credit for actually responding),
> Microsoft decided to
> > > launch an "investigation" of ME! Apparently they decided
> that I was
> > > trying to "steal" a copy of IE. HUH??? Microsoft then later
> > > apologized, but to this date hasn't provided the
> information of how to
> > > actually download a full copy of IE. Customer service?
> > > Appreciation of
> > > a customer pointing out a bug?
> > >
> > > - John Wright
> > > Starfire Research
> > >
> > > Philip Taylor wrote:
> > > >
> > > > there are two important bits here:
> > > > 1) report all driver bugs
> > > > 2) D3D fog
> > > >
> > > > 1) report all driver bugs.
> > > >
> > > > this is SO important. if all ISVs dont report driver bugs
> > > they find, the
> > > > quality of the drivers never gets better. please take the
> > > time to report
> > > > these.
> > > >
> > > > Most IHVs do have helpful dev-rel folk and want to hear
> this sort of
> > > > thing to make their products better.
> > > >
> > > > they cant if we arent vigilant, we are all in this together.
> > > >
> > > > please.
> > > >
> > > > 2) D3D fog.
> > > >
> > > > D3D implements two types of fog: vertex fog and pixel fog.
> > > >
> > > > pixel fog ( sometimes called table fog ) should be
> > > preferred over vertex
> > > > fog since it appears better, as long as the driver
> > > correctly implements
> > > > it. note the key statement "as long as the driver correctly
> > > implements
> > > > it"****. it appears better since its calculated
> per-pixel instead of
> > > > calculated per-vertex and then iterated.
> > > >
> > > > pixel fog comes in two flavors:
> > > >
> > > > 1) Eye-relative pixel fog ( or w-fog indicated by the
> > > > D3DPRASTERCAPS_WFOG caps bit ) is preferred since it
> avoids certain
> > > > fogging artifacts due to non-linear distribution of z
> values in the
> > > > z-buffer.
> > > >
> > > > 1) z-based pixel fog. If w-fog isnt supported you get
> > > z-based pixel fog.
> > > >
> > > > if the driver doesnt implement pixel fog, fall back to
> vertex fox.
> > > >
> > > > vertex fog comes in two flavors:
> > > >
> > > > 1) range based fog ( indicated by the
> > > D3DPRASTERCAPS_FOGRANGE caps bit )
> > > > uses the actual distance from the viewpoint to the vertex
> > > rather than
> > > > the depth of the vertex; avoiding some rotational artifacts. If
> > > > range-based fog isnt supported, you again get z-based fog.
> > > >
> > > > 2) application fog. the application must use its own fog
> > > calculations
> > > > when not using the D3D TnL pipeline. the fog factor is
> > > calculated and
> > > > placed in the alpha component of the specular color,
> making specular
> > > > really RGBF in that case.
> > > >
> > > > Regardless of which type of fog, pixel or vertex, you use - your
> > > > application must provide a compliant projection matrix (
> > > what the docs
> > > > call a W-Friendly Projection Matrix ) to ensure that
> fog effects are
> > > > properly applied. This restriction applies even to
> > > applications that do
> > > > not use the Direct3D transformation and lighting engine. If the
> > > > projection matrix isn't compliant with this requirement,
> > > fog effects are
> > > > not applied properly. This is covered in more detail in
> the D3D doc.
> > > >
> > > > so, to avoid really bad artifacts the order an application
> > > should prefer
> > > > fog features is:
> > > > pixel w-fog
> > > > vertex range-fog
> > > > pixel z-fog
> > > > vertex z-fog
> > > > application fog.
> > > >
> > > > if the application isnt using the D3D TnL pipeline ( which
> > > is quite good
> > > > and has per-processor specific optimizations ) then its
> > > highly likely
> > > > that application fog will produce the most uniform
> results since you
> > > > control your own destiny by informing the iterator what
> values to
> > > > iterate at each vertex.
> > > >
> > > > and, as always, one must be aware of the bad drivers
> out there which
> > > > would modify that order of feature preference.
> > > >
> > > > ****GetDeviceIdentifier allows a mechanism to identify
> > > card/drivers that
> > > > do not comply with the spec, and provide a last-chance method to
> > > > fallback. Applications that depend on certain
> functionality should
> > > > consider maintaining an internal list of offending
> card/drivers and
> > > > performing a fall-back mechanism to ensure correct visual
> > > appearance.
> > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Kelvin Chung [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > > > > Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2001 2:57 PM
> > > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > > Subject: Re: [JAVA3D] Fog (Linear) Differing Results
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > > >Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 17:49:32 -0400
> > > > > >To: Kelvin Chung <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > > >From: Mark Ferneau <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > > >Subject: Re: [JAVA3D] Fog (Linear) Differing Results
> > > > > >Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > > >Mime-Version: 1.0
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Kelvin,
> > > > > >
> > > > > >In the body of the email I indicated J3D (Java3D) 1.2.1_01
> > > > > for both OGL and
> > > > > >D3D. I think, therefore, that this is a driver
> > > > > issue--although I see it
> > > > > >across different machines, boards, and operating systems.
> > > > > So essentially I
> > > > > >should probably not rely on fog looking reasonably
> > > consistent across
> > > > > >different platforms or graphics boards.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Therefore another method will have to be used to
> achieve the same
> > > > > >effect. Would you agree with that statement?
> > > > > >
> > > > > Not sure. If it is a driver bug we should notify the graphics
> > > > > vendor to fix it. I suppose driver should implement it
> > > > > according to the fog formula.
> > > > >
> > > > > At least under Sparc Solaris the fog effect are consistent.
> > > > >
> > > > > - Kelvin
> > > > > -----------------
> > > > > Java 3D Team
> > > > > Sun Microsystems Inc.
> > > > >
> > > > > ==============================================================
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> > > message "help".
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> > > >
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