Re: [The Java Posse] Re: Apple Bias?

[Christian Edward Gruber]

Herr Meinholz,

Holy argumentum ad-hominem, dude!  Wow.  I'm not an Apple apologist.   
Heck, I work for Google and have more than enough reasons to be  
annoyed by Apple, as a firm, from an industry perspective and  
developer ecosystem perspective.  I'm just saying that the kinds of  
issues that were raised did not affect the bulk of my last five years,  
four of which were pre-Google, and involved mostly Java development on  
Mac developer stations/laptops with deployment to a heterogenous back- 
end usually on J2EE servers.  Also, I happen, personally, to like the  
Mac dev tools because I grew up on NeXTSTEP.  That's a style  
preference - it doesn't blind me to what I see as unhelpful business  
practices (unhelpful to the customer and the developer).

In your argument you make a case for uncertainty... except that Mac  
apps don't require an app-store intermediary, and they would lose  
about 50-80% of their Mac laptop business if you couldn't install  
whatever app you wanted on such.  So it's only a very theoretical  
uncertainty.  The Mac itself is fairly non-walled-garden.  the iPhone  
and iPad and iPod - sure. Total walled garden.  I disagree with Apple  
on this.  I'd like a walled garden approach with a nice ladder to hop  
over the wall.

But why am I even discussing this when you call my intellectual  
integrity in question and you don't even know me.  And your ad-hominem  
is largely based on such an accusation based on my anecdotal  
disagreement with your sweeping conclusions?  All I did was provide  
myself as a counter-example.  Not saying "it ain't so" ... saying,  
rather, "it ain't necessarily so." Were I not immediately dismissive  
of such an assault on my character, I would be offended sir.  As it  
is, I shall just mock you to my friends. ;-)

cheers, love and light. (and hopefully a good sense of humour)
Christian.



On May 5, 2010, at 1:20 AM, Lloyd Meinholz wrote:

This is not FUD. There is uncertainty (the U part) in how fully  
Apple will support Java in the future. Apple has badly neglected  
Java in the past and has not commited to not doing the same in the  
future. What gives you any confidence that Apple will ever release a  
Java update past what you have now? What happens when Apple decides  
that Objective-C is the only language that should be used on MacOSX  
just like they recently decided it was the only appropriate language  
for the iPutz platform?

I purchased a Mac mini 2 years ago to give MacOSX a whirl. I  
recently made a major upgrade/purchase of my home desktop system. I  
really wanted an iMac but with the uncertainty I perceived and felt  
(whether you recognize it as legitimate or not) I went with an Intel  
box instead. The decision was not purely monetary even though I  
think I got a better value with my Intel box. The experience I had  
with my mini was a few months before Apple released the big Java  
updates (1.5 and 1.6) and the experience was not stellar for me.  
Eclipse in particular was sub-par and has only recently gotten  
better (Cocoa port?). I have no confidence that if I had bought an  
iMac that a similar situation would not re-occur in the future.

What is the difference between Apple saying that non Objective-C  
applications on the iPutz is not ok from Sun saying non Java  
applications on the JVM is not ok? What kind of hell would people  
raise if Sun/Oracle said that only Java could run on the JVM (no  
groovy/scala/clojure/jruby for you) since other languages would give  
a sub-optimal user/developer experience? What is Tor (sorry to pick  
on you, but you did mock Linux :) going to say when Apple decides  
that JavaFX shouldn't run on MacOSX since it doesn't give the native  
LOF experience?

In the end, we can develop good Java code on any of the major  
platforms and maybe it's mostly a personal preference, but I prefer  
the one that doesn't limit my options. I also prefer colleagues that  
are intellectually honest enough to accept the good and bad of their  
dealer without becoming an apologist.

Lloyd


On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 11:35 PM, Christian Edward Gruber <christianedwardgru...@gmail.com 
> wrote:
And yet, almost all of my development in the last 10 years has been  
in Java, and about 5 years ago I gave up and got a Mac (once they  
were on Intel for a rev or two.).  I've never looked back.  I had  
some minor annoyance about JDK6 which quickly was addressed with  
developers access downloads which were generally of high quality,  
and it's been a stellar - stellar - experience.

I'm not saying they're awesome as a company towards devs who don't  
play their way - I"m just saying I haven't been hit very hard by it,  
and I"m not an atypical developer, in the java world.  It is FUD.   
The not-best-place for me has been linux where I hate the UI all the  
time (gnome or kde - I have resorted to WMaker, but it's a hack),  
and on Windows where I bluescreen all the time.  Again, that's me,  
that's my preferences, but the Java part hasn't been an issue, so  
the above mentioned once took priority.

Christian.

On May 4, 2010, at 7:47 PM, Lloyd Meinholz wrote:

I honestly don't understand why you think questioning that the Mac  
universe is maybe not the best place for Java develoers. is fud. In  
the recent past, Apple took a long time to update the JDK to 1.6  
and patch 1.5. How far behind in their releases were they? 1, 2  
years? They said nothing of the reasoning, they gave no roadmap for  
next releases. There is no reason to think that they might not do  
something similar again. OpenJDK is not the same thing. There are  
disadvantages to having to start up an X11.app to use Java on the  
Mac. Things may be ok now, but it wasn't in the recent past and  
there is no guarantee that it will be in the future. Back in the  
day, there was a huge difference is using blackdown Java on Linux  
vs. using the Sun JDK.

You guys can all love you Macs and MacOSX and iWhatever and they  
are great machines, but you should really be more honest with  
yourself about Apple's intentions. I'm buying hardware and software  
to develop for and use in the way that I think is best, not the way  
Apple thinks is best.

Lloyd


On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 7:00 PM, Reinier Zwitserloot <reini...@gmail.com 
> wrote:
Replies inline.

>
> 1) Would you agree that given actions and words, Apple also  
considers
> Java an inferior and irrelevant platform?

Yes. Especially for desktop apps. Just like ruby, python, mono, the
entirety of the terminal (including bash, find, grep and friends),
lua, scala, java, PHP and any other language you care to name. For  
NON-
desktop apps though, apple still sells a server OS. They don't sell  
an
Objective C based web framework. So, what the heck are you on about?

This might be of some concern to JavaFX users. Minor concern, of
course - you can claim the OpenJDK is unstable but that's rather
offensive to the OpenJDK crew, and X11.app works perfectly well if
that's what it ends up taking, though with the recent popularity
especially amongst developers neither Apple nor Oracle can afford to
let such a situation stand. Apple sells servers. Servers run server
software. Like web servers with webapps on them. Apple themselves use
WebObjects (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WebObjects) which they
themselves wrote. In Java.

Stop fudding.

>
> 2) While Steve's cross-air might be aimed at Adobe, his flak  
shooting
> has broad implications across the board. Do you think he has moral
> issues with the collateral damage it's creating beyond his own  
iWorld?
> (i.e. Novell's MonoTouch customers)

Moral issues? I'm quite sure he's so focussed and passionate on  
giving
the world his personal vision of the future that he's so far
entrenched in "the end justifies the means" it would take a direct
moral conflict for him to consider anything he steers apple into as
immoral. That's problematic for us and all the more reason to  
pressure
Apple into caring more about such issues.

Stop fudding. You claimed Java support on OS X is unreliable. What
does Steve's flak shooting and his moral compass have to do with java
support on Os X? If you were holding on to your hat about somehow
using java to write for the iPhone or iPad, and / or if you weren't
but you feel the current situation is very bad news, I'll join you on
the picket line. iPhone / iPad and macbooks aren't the same thing
though. So stop fudding.

>
> 3) Do you see any monopolistic behavioral pattern that suggests  
Apple
> is the new Microsoft, except that Apple has the benefit of good  
taste
> and is still not big enough as a target for anti-trust litigation?

Yes. If you'd read my other posts you'd know that.

Stop fudding. You claimed Java support on OS X is unreliable. What
does Apple's stellar rise to power have to do with java support on Os
X? If anything, OS X being more entrenched than ever DECREASES the
odds that there won't be a decent java available on OS X. If not
apple, then sunoracle will step up. They can't not.

Unless you're going to claim that we'll see an app store model in the
near future of OS X, where you simply cannot run any apps on an OS X
machine at all unless personally signed and verified by apple. Which
is completely ludicrous. If that's truly what you think and why  
you're
FUDing java on OS X, you should say so, so the folks reading your
advice can make their own judgement on the likelyhood of this extreme
scenario.

>
> /Casper
>
> “We’ve been there before,
> and intermediate layers between the platform and the developer
> ultimately produces sub-standard apps and hinders the progress of  
the
> platform.”
>
> On May 4, 2:20 pm, Reinier Zwitserloot <reini...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Given that OpenJDK7 already builds on Mac OS X today, I'm  
guessing
> > we'll have to wait about a minute after OpenJDK 7 final is  
released,
> > depending on how fast your computer can build the OpenJDK. Duh.
>
> > Stop fudding.
>
> > On May 4, 10:42 am, Kevin Wright <kev.lee.wri...@googlemail.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > > 1. The recent letter to Adobe shows that Apple clearly  
believe Cocoa to the
> > > the "One True Way".  Anything else is going through a  
"private library" or
> > > "intermediate framework", and we KNOW what happens to those.
>
> > > 2. Java access to Cocoa has been deprecated.  This is not  
just lack of a
> > > timely release, it's now permanently locked out of the pearly  
gates (unless
> > > it goes via JNI, which will mean someone else's framework...)
>
> > > 3. As for timely updates of Java?  The painfully slow wait  
for Java 6,
> > > accompanied by no information whatsoever, is now infamous in  
the eyes of
> > > many developers.  Given that Apple now seem to consider Java  
less important
> > > that it was back then, how long will we have to wait for Java  
7 once it's
> > > out?
>
> > > On 4 May 2010 02:16, Reinier Zwitserloot <reini...@gmail.com>  
wrote:
>
> > > > Of course it's 100% FUD - the fact that apple no longer  
considered
> > > > cocoa libraries for java important is completely irrelevant  
compared
> > > > to releasing timely java updates. I don't see the  
availability or
> > > > timeless of updates of MFC bindings in windows java, or KDE  
bindings
> > > > for linux java raise anyone's concern. Why should cocoa be  
any
> > > > different?
>
> > > > On May 3, 5:03 pm, Kevin Wright  
<kev.lee.wri...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > > > > It's not 100% FUD
>
> > > > > Java as a user of the Cocoa API got relegated to a 2nd  
class citizen with
> > > > > the release of OSX Tiger:
> > > >http://developer.apple.com/mac/library/qa/qa2001/qa1342.html
>
> > > > > On 3 May 2010 15:17, Reinier Zwitserloot  
<reini...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > Casper, for the fiftheenth bloody time, STOP FUDDING  
about java on
> > > > > > macs.
>
> > > > > >http://landonf.bikemonkey.org/static/soylatte/
>
> > > > > > OpenJDK for the win.
>
> > > > > > Pro-Apple bias amongst geeks is rooted due to the fact  
that as far as
> > > > > > notebooks are concerned, apple's hardware is fit for a  
programmer
> > > > > > whereas your average notebook / desktop PC that doesn't  
host a shiny
> > > > > > apple logo on it is a piece of crap. It's hard to take  
a standpoint
> > > > > > against a supplier of something no one else supplies.  
If it had been
> > > > > > related to 'alternative to microsoft', we'd have seen  
similar bias
> > > > > > towards linux and solaris but that's not really panning  
out, hence
> > > > > > your theory does not seem to hold water.
>
> > > > > > On May 3, 11:29 am, Casper Bang <casper.b...@gmail.com>  
wrote:
> > > > > > > In this particular context, I think the bias is  
rooted in your foe's
> > > > > > > enemy being your friend. For the longest time Apple  
was the escape
> > > > pod
> > > > > > > that hardcore Java developers took from the evil  
empire's mother
> > > > ship.
> > > > > > > However, these recent events are really just a  
predictable further
> > > > > > > escalation, considering Java on a Mac is typically  
1½-2 years behind
> > > > > > > other platform releases. It should come as no  
surprise then, when
> > > > > > > Apple undoubtedly drops all support for client Java  
within the
> > > > not-too-
> > > > > > > distant future invoking all too familiar arguments. I  
do feel that
> > > > > > > several of the posse members took a far more healthy  
and critical
> > > > > > > outlook on Apple over the past year though, lead by  
our posse editor
> > > > > > > in chief.
>
> > > > > > > /Casper
>
> > > > > > > On May 3, 10:45 am, Liam Knox <liamjk...@gmail.com>  
wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > Should I just say Apple is purely after a monopoly  
i.e. the cash,
> > > > > > > > unlike Joe's stated reasons ?
> > > > > > > > Does that make it clearer
>
> > > > > > > > On May 3, 5:06 pm, Kerry Sainsbury  
<ke...@fidelma.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 3:25 PM,  
phil.swen...@gmail.com <
>
> > > > > > > > > phil.swen...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > To describe Apples doctorine on Flash or Java  
on their mobile
> > > > > > devices
> > > > > > > > > > > as purely due to a want of consistent user  
experience is just
> > > > > > nonsense
>
> > > > > > > > > > > The clear reason....
>
> > > > > > > > > > Not convincing!  Calling something "nonsense"  
or "clear"
> > > > doesn't
> > > > > > make
> > > > > > > > > > it so.  Try forming a cogent argument next time.
>
> > > > > > > > > Well, Liam's next sentence was "You could equally  
diverge from
> > > > their
> > > > > > > > > perceived athletics using objective C of any of  
their mandated
> > > > > > > > > technologies", which sounded reasonable to me  --  
apart from some
> > > > > > issues
> > > > > > > > > with English.
>
> > > > > > > > > I believe he meant:
>
> > > > > > > > > "You could equally diverge from their perceived  
aesthetics using
> > > > > > Objective C
> > > > > > > > > or any of their mandated technologies".
>
> > > > > > > > > Does that make it clearer?
>
> > > > > > > > > Why would the UI I create using Objective C be  
any better than
> > > > the UI
> > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > would create using any other framework or  
language, if that
> > > > framework
> > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > language calls the same UI layer that Objective C  
does?
>
> > > > > > > > > In fact I'm sure that some frameworks could  
actually enhance the
> > > > UI
> > > > > > that I
> > > > > > > > > would create, because I make AWFUL user interfaces.
>
> > > > > > > > > (sorry for jumping in Liam!)
>
> > > > > > > > > Cheers
> > > > > > > > > Kerry
>
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> > > > > --
> > > > > Kevin Wright
>
> > > > > mail/google talk: kev.lee.wri...@googlemail.com
> > > > > wave: kev.lee.wri...@googlewave.com
> > > > > skype: kev.lee.wright
> > > > > twitter: @thecoda
>
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