Nobody is demanding that you change to Scala immediately, or that you use it for all projects.
As for allegations of hijacking, I've actually looked back over mails in this group, and the thread that seems to have sparked off this whole debate was Wildam's, titled "Mushroom Season". The first mention of Scala in that discussion was in the phrase: "I don't think we are talking about noddy improvements in semantics or conciseness like Scala promotes. Scala adds nothing to Java in the real world, compared to a better persistence idiom" Quite understandably, this triggered several responses pointing out that "actually, Scala isn't 'noddy', that it does add a fair bit more than 'nothing', and instead of making unsubstantiated claims here are a few examples of how it offers some genuine and useful features above and beyond Java. So please take a *proper* look at it yourself before insulting the language in this manner" Yes, I was one of those respondents, but how would any of you react if you heard a Pascal or Cobol developer describe Java's object-orientation using similar language? On 11 September 2010 18:44, Robert Casto <[email protected]> wrote: > You totally miss the point. I am not talking about Scala developers in > general. Just those who say I must write all programs now in Scala because > it is superior to Java. Not everyone has the luxury of living in Europe for > a financial company that is open to their developers using Scala. > > I'm tired of everyone saying how good Scala is. It is better. Great. I've > said it. Doesn't change a thing. > > I'm still going to be writing in Java because my employer pays me to. They > don't have a reason to move over to Scala and there is nothing I can do at > present to get them to change. A previous employer of mine is still doing > work with JDK 1.4! It has been unsupported for over 6 years! Doesn't matter > because their customers do not want to pay to move forward. Too much > perceived risk, cost, etc. > > None of my comments were meant to say anything bad about Scala. It seems > that Scala developers are a very sensitive lot. I just want people to stop > trying to shove it down other throats and realize that a JDK7, 8, ... 12 is > probably still beneficial to the world. We Java developers are not bad > people because we haven't switched to Scala. Our group is just not going to > go there so don't worry about it. Eventually these huge companies will see > something that will convince them to move forward and people will start > learning Scala or whatever the next language is. It will be a business and > financial decision with lots of other variables such as maintainability, > training costs, etc that will be factored in. > > Please make Scala better. Make it so that it is a no brainer for big > companies to switch. Just don't expect every Java developer to go running to > a new language while there are billions of lines of code to maintain, > enhance, debug, etc. > > > On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 1:04 PM, Kevin Wright <[email protected]>wrote: > >> At risk of coming across as just such a fan boy, I think your analogy >> badly misrepresents Scala advocates. >> >> - A Scala developer working commercially is every bit as interested in >> getting the job done and bringing a product to market. Much of the basis of >> my personal passion comes from direct experience that I can do this more >> effectively in Scala. >> >> - At least in Europe, some of the biggest Scala adopters are financial >> companies. The functional programming paradigm maps far more closely to >> their business domain model. >> >> - We accept that there's a business risk in ANY change, but are also aware >> of the opportunity cost in maintaining the status quo; this is a business >> risk too. >> >> - Almost all Scala developers migrated from being very strong Java >> developers, I personally have over 15 years experience in the language. >> Often the final push to migrating is when you finally become just that >> little bit *too* frustrated with Java's limitations and inconsistent >> behaviour and syntax after working with it for a long time. Believe me, >> we're very aware of the strengths of both Java and the JVM, but that >> knowledge didn't blinker me to the idea that there may be something better >> (which would have been the true fan-boy behaviour). It also helps that >> there's now something to migrate to. >> >> - Martin Odersky has already set a precedent in replacing a previous Java >> compiler. This happened when GJ became the basis of Java 1.5, adding >> generics to the language. >> >> - Changing language is not like finding the obscene amounts of cash needed >> to buy a sports car. Programming languages are generally made available as >> free downloads, and there are plenty of learning resources online. >> >> - There is a lot of misunderstanding about the language, perhaps the worst >> example being "Scala is too complex". Any Scala developer will freely admit >> to you that "yes, of course there's a learning curve". I saw the language >> syntax daunting at first, we all did, but it becomes natural a lot faster >> than you might imagine! >> >> For almost every conceivable task I now find Scala to be far more >> intuitive than Java ever was. The only time you'll encounter serious >> complexity in Scala is when working with the sort of seriously complex >> problem that you just wouldn't consider tackling in Java. I'm now writing >> code that in Java I'd have to break type safety via reflection, or use a DI >> framework, or end up with lots of duplication, or drop cases I'd like to >> cover, or force a lot of synchronization and worry about about performance >> and thread safety. >> >> >> >> On 11 September 2010 17:23, Robert Casto <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Why can't we be interested in both? From a business perspective, I don't >>> see a chance of getting Scala into production. I could realistically see >>> companies using JDK 7 or 8 into 2020 or beyond. Retailers, insurance, >>> financial companies, and the like are not using Java for the sake of using >>> Java. It is there to meet a business need. They will see no need to change >>> unless they can't find Java developers. And boy have we been creating Java >>> developers for the past 15+ years! >>> >>> Keep the scala and groovy discussions. Just loose the 'fan boy' >>> mentality. So what if I have to write twice as much code. My employer >>> doesn't care if I write 100 or 1000 lines of code to do something. All they >>> care about is whether it works properly and did it get done on time so they >>> can get it to market. That is where the paycheck is and our job is to >>> deliver. >>> >>> Of course there are better methods to getting the job done. One of the >>> Posse drives a Tesla while I drive a Ford F150. I'm not about to go out and >>> buy a Tesla just so I can get somewhere faster. The truck is good enough for >>> now and will be for years to come. I can't afford a Tesla and everyone >>> telling me to go buy one because it is better is not going to make me >>> change. The point is, there are many other reasons to keep writing programs >>> in the Java language, and those reasons need to be respected by the "fan >>> boys". >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 11:42 AM, Zankan Hsieh <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> I do agree that there is no need for another scala forum. I think most >>>> people here are still interested to know new languages and different >>>> perspective of each language, including scala. Personally I don't want >>>> scala discussion to go away from this forum but it is indeed very tiresome >>>> to see every discussion turn into same scala is awesome and my code is half >>>> as long as yours type of comment. I appreciate people's discussion on this >>>> forum but its really tiresome to read the 100s time how awesome scala is >>>> without really learning anything new in the discussion. May be it is a >>>> better idea to tag subject line when that happen so it's easier for people >>>> to decide whether to skip. >>>> >>>> Finally let me say that I really appreciate people contributing to this >>>> forum and I learn alot from many of you. Thanks >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> On Sep 11, 2010, at 8:20 AM, Kevin Wright <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> I'm not 100% convinced, it seems that Scala only became involved in >>>> those threads where it was relevant. >>>> >>>> While JVM closures, and the alleged "death" of Java, and alternatives to >>>> vendor lock-in with Oracle are all hot topics, I think it'll be difficult >>>> (impossible even) for Scala not to come up in discussions. >>>> >>>> It's also very informative to look at Scala representation in >>>> conferences such as Strange Loop, JAX, Javazone, Devoxx, etc. Not to >>>> mention Amazon book sales relating to JVM languages. The phenomenon is >>>> absolutely not limited to this mailing list! >>>> >>>> I vote to tag specifically Scala related topics with [Scala], and >>>> otherwise accept that it will come up as being relevant in other more >>>> general discussion. >>>> >>>> >>>> Specifically: >>>> >>>> "Request for Scala fans" >>>> - It's in the title, what else can I say... >>>> >>>> "JDK 7 delayed to mid 2012" >>>> - Lots of discussion concerning the lack of closures and possible >>>> alternatives. >>>> >>>> "simplicity trivial/complexity manageable" >>>> - Thread that I started, intending to concentrate Scala talk in one >>>> place. Didn't quite work out that way. >>>> >>>> "Mushroom Season - New language each year" >>>> - I'll accept blame on this one, after reading: "I don't think we are >>>> talking about noddy improvements in semantics or >>>> conciseness like Scala promotes. Scala adds nothing to Java in the real >>>> world, compared to a better persistence idiom". I felt obliged to correct >>>> the numerous misunderstandings and misrepresentations there, sorry about >>>> that! >>>> >>>> "Management: For now Java is no longer an option for new development" >>>> - Which led to the obvious debate on "what is an option then". Scala >>>> was suggested. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 11 September 2010 12:45, Mario Fusco < <[email protected]> >>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I think Reiner is right. There are lots of Scala fans here including >>>>> myself. And it seems we have the bad habit (not trait :) ) to diverge >>>>> many discussion on Scala related topics. >>>>> >>>>> Anyway this is also the symptom of an always growing hype around >>>>> Scala. For these reasons I suppose it could be a great idea to branch >>>>> this group and create a brand new one more specifically related to >>>>> Scala. >>>>> >>>>> At this purpose I just registered The Scala Posse group: >>>>> <http://groups.google.com/group/scalaposse> >>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/scalaposse hoping to move there all the >>>>> threads speaking about Scala. Do you think It makes sense? >>>>> >>>>> For all the Scala developers, let me know if this initiative could be >>>>> interesting to you. >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Mario >>>>> >>>>> P.S.: I don't know if I am violating some intellectual property or >>>>> even if I am doing something wrong in any other sense by using the >>>>> "Posse" name. In this case, please let me know it and I will change >>>>> the name of the group immediately. >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "The Java Posse" group. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to <[email protected]> >>>>> [email protected]. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>> <javaposse%[email protected]> >>>>> [email protected]. >>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>> <http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en> >>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Kevin Wright >>>> >>>> mail / gtalk / msn : <[email protected]>[email protected] >>>> pulse / skype: kev.lee.wright >>>> twitter: @thecoda >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "The Java Posse" group. >>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> [email protected]. >>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "The Java Posse" group. >>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> [email protected]<javaposse%[email protected]> >>>> . >>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Robert Casto >>> www.robertcasto.com >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "The Java Posse" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> [email protected]<javaposse%[email protected]> >>> . >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Kevin Wright >> >> mail / gtalk / msn : [email protected] >> pulse / skype: kev.lee.wright >> twitter: @thecoda >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "The Java Posse" group. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> [email protected]<javaposse%[email protected]> >> . >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. >> > > > > -- > Robert Casto > www.robertcasto.com > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "The Java Posse" group. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected]<javaposse%[email protected]> > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. > -- Kevin Wright mail / gtalk / msn : [email protected] pulse / skype: kev.lee.wright twitter: @thecoda -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "The Java Posse" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected]. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
