Okay, you're right that that was uncalled for. I apologize. But I think it's a neat paradox that innovation is only valuable when it's kept sharply under control. Imagine a world in which the standard input interface for computers actually used a design which had originally been devised to slow down the user to prevent mechanical failures. Now imagine a computer manufacturer who decided to speed up their customers' input capacity by re-designing that input device so that it was more efficient, and using that re-designed input on all of their machines. What happens? If you think the answer is anything but "utter failure", walk around your office and count the Dvorak keyboards. People prefer good old QWERTY, because they've learned to use it and the benefits of switching to Dvorak just aren't that important to them - not important enough to re-train themselves in typing. Anyone who tries to force them to change their mind will learn that customers don't force very well. If Gosling et al had come up with some better core syntax and built Java on that, the uptake would have been approximately zero. Instead they innovated on making it a safe language for production systems worked on by many hands over long product lives, something most java programmers never notice is the basic point of the language, and they made one of the most successful languages ever. (in terms of ubiquity, if nothing else)
On Sun, Jun 24, 2012 at 12:45 AM, Oscar Hsieh <[email protected]> wrote: > That whooshing sound ... Ok, let's not play that game. > > The syntax and controls are just interfaces to the technology. Yes Java > and Car manufactures use the dominate/standard interface to help adoption > but that does not mean the internal engine cannot be revolutionary. . > > I understand your point, I just cannot agree that Facebook/apple/java are > successful because they don't innovate much. > > Sent from my iPad > > On Jun 23, 2012, at 11:58 PM, Jon Kiparsky <[email protected]> wrote: > > That whooshing sound you heard? That was a point going right past you. > No, java is not just C++, but the overwhelming similarities are not > coincidence. They are intentional, just as the similarities in the layout > of the controls of any two automobiles is intentional. And that does not > mean that java is not innovative - it simply means that most of java is > based on existing work, which of course it ought to be, and it makes use of > established conventions, which of course it ought to do. > Let's make it a little easier: Einstein's miracle year papers have > bibliographies. He only made up part of that stuff - I think we can agree > on that. Does this observation diminish his work? > > > > On Sat, Jun 23, 2012 at 11:42 PM, Oscar Hsieh <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Sorry, simply cannot agree with anything thing you said here. Don't want >> to get into the Facebook/apple fight but if you think Java is just C++ done >> right then yes, you can say Model T is just a faster horse. >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On Jun 22, 2012, at 12:33 AM, Jon Kiparsky <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >> I don't think it's minimizing someone's innovations to point out that >> they rest on previous work. The fact is that Zuckerberg had a lot of R&D >> done for him by friendster and myspace and orkut and so forth, which >> allowed him to avoid a lot of mistakes and take a lot of ideas which had >> become obvious. >> The iphone, of course, was a pretty obvious move and others had already >> moved on that concept. Sort of a forced move, really. Failure to combine >> the ipod with a phone would have been an inexplicable blunder. Making that >> move was not a stroke of genius. >> And of course Java was explicitly intended to be, basically, C++ done >> right. >> >> All of those examples are examples of innovation, sure, but they point >> out how little innovation is involved in making a category leader - not how >> much. You take everything that works and use it, and then you just fix a >> few things. If Steve Jobs had insisted on innovating in the mePhone, in >> terms of externals, it would have been a disaster. Imagine if java had not >> used the C syntax so slavishly - how many potential users would they have >> lost, simply because of the extra work of learning a new syntax? >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 6:55 PM, phil swenson <[email protected]>wrote: >> >>> it's always easy to minimize other's innovations. >>> >>> iphone? there were smartphones in 2000, they just stuck a pretty UI on >>> it. >>> Facebook? same as friendster. >>> mongodb? how is it any better than oracle? >>> java? c++ dumbed down >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 12:12 PM, Fabrizio Giudici >>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>> > On Tue, 19 Jun 2012 17:26:04 +0200, Kevin Wright < >>> [email protected]> >>> > wrote: >>> > >>> >> It's therefore no surprise that people in the US are far more likely >>> to >>> >> Try asking around in China what people there consider to be >>> innovative, I'd >>> >> >>> >> be very surprised if many people there regard Twitter in this >>> category. >>> > >>> > >>> > I don't live in China, still I don't consider Twitter a big >>> technological >>> > innovation. It's just marketing. I don't see anything that you can do >>> with >>> > Twitter and you couldn't do with other means, such as a RSS feed. >>> > Furthermore it's a single point of failure (80 minutes of blackout >>> today). >>> > >>> > >>> > -- >>> > Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect, Project Manager >>> > Tidalwave s.a.s. - "We make Java work. Everywhere." >>> > [email protected] >>> > http://tidalwave.it - http://fabriziogiudici.it >>> > >>> > -- >>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups >>> > "Java Posse" group. >>> > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> > [email protected]. >>> > For more options, visit this group at >>> > http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. >>> > >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Java Posse" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> [email protected]. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. >>> >>> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Java Posse" group. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> [email protected]. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Java Posse" group. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> [email protected]. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Java Posse" group. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected]. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Java Posse" group. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected]. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Java Posse" group. 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