David, > As far as I know ant is still > remarkably unfriendly to attempts to run it inside anything else, most of > the methods needed are private or package access.
Yeah, there's a lot of paranoid classes in there. If we show them that something useful can be done by opening up more of the ant core to the public interface, however, I think they'll fold it into the code base. It's not like it needs that much tweaking. I think that they are mainly concerned about not falling into the same pitfalls as "make" did. As long as it's clear that we're not trying to change ANT into something baroque and complex and contorted, I think they'll be alright. Plus, opening up the core API is good for IDE integration -- one of their goals. Of course, this assumes that politics is not an issue... - Matt -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of David Jencks Sent: Friday, October 04, 2002 8:51 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [JBoss-dev] Build System... any ideas Probably not:-) My idea involved a complete rewrite of ant as a bunch of mbeans, using as much jmx functionality as possible. This was based on the observation that the ant team seems to struggle a lot with classloading and questions of exactly how detyped their interfaces should be, plus dynamic extensions. Since these are what jmx is so good at, I thought building ant on jmx made a lot of sense. I think perhaps what marc is talking about is to run ant within jboss as an mbean. Back in February I spent a week or so trying to make this work (so we could have an "xdoclet deployer", drop your source code in and it gets xdoclet-ized, compiled, and deployed) but I could not work around the ant classloaders to make anything work. (as I recall, really basic ant scripts worked but xdoclet did not at all). As far as I know ant is still remarkably unfriendly to attempts to run it inside anything else, most of the methods needed are private or package access. david jencks On 2002.10.04 19:01:58 -0400 Jason Dillon wrote: > Can you explain the Ant MBean thing to me please. > > --jason > > > > On Fri, 4 Oct 2002, David Jencks wrote: > > > On 2002.10.04 09:39:07 -0400 Matt Munz wrote: > > > David, > > > > > > I forget -- were you the one that started that thread re: ANT & JMX > on > > > the > > > ant-dev mailing list? > > I don't remember, but I've suggested ant should be a set of mbeans at > least > > twice on the ant-dev list. > > > > david > > > > It makes so much sense it's scary :) I think > > > refactoring ANT and JMX/JBoss is a great idea, from a technical > > > (apolitical) > > > standpoint. > > > > > > - Matt > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of > Jason > > > Dillon > > > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 10:39 PM > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Subject: Re: [JBoss-dev] Build System... any ideas > > > > > > > > > The ant committers are all insane. > > > > > > --jason > > > > > > > > > On Thu, 3 Oct 2002, David Jencks wrote: > > > > > > > FWIW I think ant could be better replaced by a bunch of mbeans > running > > > in > > > > an mbean server. Basically task == mbean and target also == mbean. > > > > This > > > > would solve about 90% of their problems (especially their > incompetent > > > > classloaders) with no work. However none of the ant committers > seem > > > > interested. > > > > > > > > david jencks > > > > > > > > On 2002.10.03 21:34:24 -0400 marc fleury wrote: > > > > > As I was struggling today with the classpath for tapestry > compilation > > > > > and messing around with ant files and (gasp!) build magic files, > I > > > found > > > > > myself thinking that "Build on JBoss" could possibly be a > project. > > > JUST > > > > > THE CLASSLOADERS with the complete visibility thingy would be > pretty > > > > > interesting. We could run a ANT-like MBean and blah blah blah. > > > > > marc f > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On > > > > > > Behalf Of Jason Dillon > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 9:18 PM > > > > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > Subject: RE: [JBoss-dev] Build System... any ideas > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The problem with writing build components in Java is that the > > > > > > maintenece > > > > > > process is slow and difficult, and only a select few can > > > > > > currently perform > > > > > > this. > > > > > > > > > > > > Perhaps if the build components were made into a included > > > > > > module this would > > > > > > different... I am undescided as of yet to which is > > > > > > better/easier/simpiler/faster. > > > > > > > > > > > > --jason > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, 19 Sep 2002, Matt Munz wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jason, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have > > > > > > > > been thinking about using <script> todo most of the > complicated > > > > > > > > stuff, deal with the includes and make the module > > > > > > integration stuff > > > > > > > > work better. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > FYI, an alternative to using javascript (or another scripting > > > > > > > language) in your XML to provide complex ant-based algorithms > is > > > to > > > > > > > write part or all of the build system in java. I have done > this > > > > > > > before and it works quite well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > FWIW, I find ANT XML to be a bit limiting, and I don't see > the > > > > > > > comparative advantage of a scripting language (over java) in > this > > > > > > > case. If you're writing your app in java, and your build > system > > > > > > > engine uses java, why not write the build system in java > > > > > > too? Every > > > > > > > function in ANT can be called programmatically from java. > Doing > > > so > > > > > > > allows one to avoid the expressive limitations of XML. I > know > > > that > > > > > > > this is an atypical approach, and I'm not suggesting you > > > > > > use it -- I > > > > > > > just want to point out that there are alternatives to > > > > > > adding another > > > > > > > language to the build system. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Matt > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On > Behalf > > > Of > > > > > > > Jason Dillon > > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2002 1:29 AM > > > > > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > Subject: RE: [JBoss-dev] Build System... any ideas > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think we should develop a new custom task to initialize > the > > > > > > > properties > > > > > > > > and classpaths for the thirdparty packages. I wrote a > > > > > > hack to check > > > > > > > > that directories are available before calling the task > > > > > > that declares > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > classpath. We could write a task that takes the dir name > > > > > > properties > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > set and paths to create, or we could load an xml file from > the > > > > > > > > thirdparty directory that had the above. I think either > would > > > be > > > > > > > easier > > > > > > > > to understand. Another possibility would be to make use of > the > > > > > > > > script task. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I had looked into this, making a custom task, but dropped > > > > > > it... why... > > > > > > > I can't remember. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think that making use of the script task would be a good > idea. > > > I > > > > > > > have been thinking about using <script> todo most of the > > > > > > complicated > > > > > > > stuff, deal with the includes and make the module integration > > > stuff > > > > > > > work better. This would leave Ant todo what it is good > > > > > > at... building > > > > > > > a simple module. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think this is the way to go, but have not really decided > > > > > > a concrete > > > > > > > direction for it yet. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I also think that we could probably make use of some of the > > > > > > other Ant > > > > > > > based tools out there... though I think that no matter what > we > > > will > > > > > > > have to write some custom bits to make it work as we want and > > > need. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Other then that I think we should use the parallel task in > the > > > > > > > testsuite > > > > > > > > to speed up the xdoclet and jar tasks. I'm not sure if it > would > > > > > > > > really speed it up but doing a one-test takes forever > > > > > > because of the > > > > > > > > xdoclet tasks. Also the default test suite takes so long > that > > > no > > > > > > > > one runs it anymore and most have created "smaller" sub > > > > > > suites, but > > > > > > > > I don't think that is a build system problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > David and I talked about this on the way back from Tahoe. I > > > would > > > > > > > like to revisit the entire TestSuite, putting a testsuite in > each > > > > > > > module, which would perform Unit tests for components and > parts > > > of > > > > > > > components for that module alone. Then the jboss/testsuite > > > > > > would be > > > > > > > an integration testsuite. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This way, if you are working on bits from the cluster > > > > > > module, you can > > > > > > > write simple tests to validate your component and run the > tests > > > > > > > quickly. Then when you are satisfied, you can write an > > > integration > > > > > > > test, which would actual test a real component inside of a > JBoss > > > > > > > instance. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This will get us more coverage, but will also encourage > > > > > > developers to > > > > > > > make smaller, simpler tests for stuff and make it more likely > > > they > > > > > > > will run them, as it won't take forever. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, on the subject of build systems and testsuites, I have > been > > > > > > > toying with the idea of allow Java and Jython tests to be run > > > > > > > together. Using Jython it will be faster to throw together > > > > > > small and > > > > > > > functional tests with much less code and a lot less > > > > > > trouble. We would > > > > > > > still need Java tests to run stuff that is type dependant, > > > > > > but the two > > > > > > > could live together happy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The build system overhaul is a dependency of this I believe. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have been planning on doing all of the above... just I > > > > > > haven't had > > > > > > > the time to make any progress. Also I really want to > > > > > > finish the basic > > > > > > > command line console framework. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fuck, I need my boss to stop making me work on their lame ass > > > > > > > projects. Who cares about that shit really... bah! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --jason > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -dain > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jason Dillon wrote: > > > > > > > > > Can I get anyone who knows anything about Ant based > > > > > > build systems > > > > > > > > > (extensions, helpers, whatever) to send me some > > > > > > feedback on both > > > > > > > > > positive and negative experiences they have had. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is becoming very apparent that we need to overhaul the > > > build > > > > > > > system > > > > > > > > > to meet the current and future needs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would appreciate any input you have. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --jason > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > This SF.NET email is sponsored by: AMD - Your access to > > > > > > the experts > > > > > > > > on Hammer Technology! Open Source & Linux Developers, > > > > > > register now > > > > > > > > for the AMD Developer Symposium. Code: EX8664 > > > > > > > > http://www.developwithamd.com/developerlab > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > Jboss-development mailing list > > > > > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek > > > > > > > Welcome to geek heaven. > > > > > > > http://thinkgeek.com/sf > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > Jboss-development mailing list > > > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek > > > > > > > Welcome to geek heaven. > > > > > > > http://thinkgeek.com/sf > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > Jboss-development mailing list > > > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek > > > > > > Welcome to geek heaven. > > > > > > http://thinkgeek.com/sf > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > Jboss-development mailing list > > > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek > > > > > Welcome to geek heaven. > > > > > http://thinkgeek.com/sf > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Jboss-development mailing list > > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > > > This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek > > > > Welcome to geek heaven. > > > > http://thinkgeek.com/sf > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Jboss-development mailing list > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > > This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek > > > Welcome to geek heaven. > > > http://thinkgeek.com/sf > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Jboss-development mailing list > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > > This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek > > > Welcome to geek heaven. > > > http://thinkgeek.com/sf > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Jboss-development mailing list > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek > > Welcome to geek heaven. > > http://thinkgeek.com/sf > > _______________________________________________ > > Jboss-development mailing list > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek > Welcome to geek heaven. > http://thinkgeek.com/sf > _______________________________________________ > Jboss-development mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development > > ------------------------------------------------------- This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek Welcome to geek heaven. http://thinkgeek.com/sf _______________________________________________ Jboss-development mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development ------------------------------------------------------- This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek Welcome to geek heaven. http://thinkgeek.com/sf _______________________________________________ Jboss-development mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development
