Do you know any folks with Ant rw? --jason
On Fri, 4 Oct 2002, Matt Munz wrote: > David, > > > As far as I know ant is still > > remarkably unfriendly to attempts to run it inside anything else, most of > > the methods needed are private or package access. > > Yeah, there's a lot of paranoid classes in there. If we show them that > something useful can be done by opening up more of the ant core to the > public interface, however, I think they'll fold it into the code base. It's > not like it needs that much tweaking. > > I think that they are mainly concerned about not falling into the same > pitfalls as "make" did. As long as it's clear that we're not trying to > change ANT into something baroque and complex and contorted, I think they'll > be alright. Plus, opening up the core API is good for IDE integration -- > one of their goals. Of course, this assumes that politics is not an > issue... > > - Matt > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of David > Jencks > Sent: Friday, October 04, 2002 8:51 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: [JBoss-dev] Build System... any ideas > > > Probably not:-) > > My idea involved a complete rewrite of ant as a bunch of mbeans, using as > much jmx functionality as possible. This was based on the observation that > the ant team seems to struggle a lot with classloading and questions of > exactly how detyped their interfaces should be, plus dynamic extensions. > Since these are what jmx is so good at, I thought building ant on jmx made > a lot of sense. > > I think perhaps what marc is talking about is to run ant within jboss as an > mbean. Back in February I spent a week or so trying to make this work (so > we could have an "xdoclet deployer", drop your source code in and it gets > xdoclet-ized, compiled, and deployed) but I could not work around the ant > classloaders to make anything work. (as I recall, really basic ant scripts > worked but xdoclet did not at all). As far as I know ant is still > remarkably unfriendly to attempts to run it inside anything else, most of > the methods needed are private or package access. > > david jencks > > On 2002.10.04 19:01:58 -0400 Jason Dillon wrote: > > Can you explain the Ant MBean thing to me please. > > > > --jason > > > > > > > > On Fri, 4 Oct 2002, David Jencks wrote: > > > > > On 2002.10.04 09:39:07 -0400 Matt Munz wrote: > > > > David, > > > > > > > > I forget -- were you the one that started that thread re: ANT & JMX > > on > > > > the > > > > ant-dev mailing list? > > > I don't remember, but I've suggested ant should be a set of mbeans at > > least > > > twice on the ant-dev list. > > > > > > david > > > > > > It makes so much sense it's scary :) I think > > > > refactoring ANT and JMX/JBoss is a great idea, from a technical > > > > (apolitical) > > > > standpoint. > > > > > > > > - Matt > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of > > Jason > > > > Dillon > > > > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 10:39 PM > > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Subject: Re: [JBoss-dev] Build System... any ideas > > > > > > > > > > > > The ant committers are all insane. > > > > > > > > --jason > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, 3 Oct 2002, David Jencks wrote: > > > > > > > > > FWIW I think ant could be better replaced by a bunch of mbeans > > running > > > > in > > > > > an mbean server. Basically task == mbean and target also == mbean. > > > > > > This > > > > > would solve about 90% of their problems (especially their > > incompetent > > > > > classloaders) with no work. However none of the ant committers > > seem > > > > > interested. > > > > > > > > > > david jencks > > > > > > > > > > On 2002.10.03 21:34:24 -0400 marc fleury wrote: > > > > > > As I was struggling today with the classpath for tapestry > > compilation > > > > > > and messing around with ant files and (gasp!) build magic files, > > I > > > > found > > > > > > myself thinking that "Build on JBoss" could possibly be a > > project. > > > > JUST > > > > > > THE CLASSLOADERS with the complete visibility thingy would be > > pretty > > > > > > interesting. We could run a ANT-like MBean and blah blah blah. > > > > > > marc f > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On > > > > > > > Behalf Of Jason Dillon > > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 9:18 PM > > > > > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > Subject: RE: [JBoss-dev] Build System... any ideas > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The problem with writing build components in Java is that the > > > > > > > maintenece > > > > > > > process is slow and difficult, and only a select few can > > > > > > > currently perform > > > > > > > this. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Perhaps if the build components were made into a included > > > > > > > module this would > > > > > > > different... I am undescided as of yet to which is > > > > > > > better/easier/simpiler/faster. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --jason > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, 19 Sep 2002, Matt Munz wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jason, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have > > > > > > > > > been thinking about using <script> todo most of the > > complicated > > > > > > > > > stuff, deal with the includes and make the module > > > > > > > integration stuff > > > > > > > > > work better. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > FYI, an alternative to using javascript (or another scripting > > > > > > > > language) in your XML to provide complex ant-based algorithms > > is > > > > to > > > > > > > > write part or all of the build system in java. I have done > > this > > > > > > > > before and it works quite well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > FWIW, I find ANT XML to be a bit limiting, and I don't see > > the > > > > > > > > comparative advantage of a scripting language (over java) in > > this > > > > > > > > case. If you're writing your app in java, and your build > > system > > > > > > > > engine uses java, why not write the build system in java > > > > > > > too? Every > > > > > > > > function in ANT can be called programmatically from java. > > Doing > > > > so > > > > > > > > allows one to avoid the expressive limitations of XML. I > > know > > > > that > > > > > > > > this is an atypical approach, and I'm not suggesting you > > > > > > > use it -- I > > > > > > > > just want to point out that there are alternatives to > > > > > > > adding another > > > > > > > > language to the build system. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Matt > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On > > Behalf > > > > Of > > > > > > > > Jason Dillon > > > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2002 1:29 AM > > > > > > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > Subject: RE: [JBoss-dev] Build System... any ideas > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think we should develop a new custom task to initialize > > the > > > > > > > > properties > > > > > > > > > and classpaths for the thirdparty packages. I wrote a > > > > > > > hack to check > > > > > > > > > that directories are available before calling the task > > > > > > > that declares > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > classpath. We could write a task that takes the dir name > > > > > > > properties > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > set and paths to create, or we could load an xml file from > > the > > > > > > > > > thirdparty directory that had the above. I think either > > would > > > > be > > > > > > > > easier > > > > > > > > > to understand. Another possibility would be to make use of > > the > > > > > > > > > script task. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I had looked into this, making a custom task, but dropped > > > > > > > it... why... > > > > > > > > I can't remember. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think that making use of the script task would be a good > > idea. > > > > I > > > > > > > > have been thinking about using <script> todo most of the > > > > > > > complicated > > > > > > > > stuff, deal with the includes and make the module integration > > > > stuff > > > > > > > > work better. This would leave Ant todo what it is good > > > > > > > at... building > > > > > > > > a simple module. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think this is the way to go, but have not really decided > > > > > > > a concrete > > > > > > > > direction for it yet. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I also think that we could probably make use of some of the > > > > > > > other Ant > > > > > > > > based tools out there... though I think that no matter what > > we > > > > will > > > > > > > > have to write some custom bits to make it work as we want and > > > > need. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Other then that I think we should use the parallel task in > > the > > > > > > > > testsuite > > > > > > > > > to speed up the xdoclet and jar tasks. I'm not sure if it > > would > > > > > > > > > really speed it up but doing a one-test takes forever > > > > > > > because of the > > > > > > > > > xdoclet tasks. Also the default test suite takes so long > > that > > > > no > > > > > > > > > one runs it anymore and most have created "smaller" sub > > > > > > > suites, but > > > > > > > > > I don't think that is a build system problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > David and I talked about this on the way back from Tahoe. I > > > > would > > > > > > > > like to revisit the entire TestSuite, putting a testsuite in > > each > > > > > > > > module, which would perform Unit tests for components and > > parts > > > > of > > > > > > > > components for that module alone. Then the jboss/testsuite > > > > > > > would be > > > > > > > > an integration testsuite. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This way, if you are working on bits from the cluster > > > > > > > module, you can > > > > > > > > write simple tests to validate your component and run the > > tests > > > > > > > > quickly. Then when you are satisfied, you can write an > > > > integration > > > > > > > > test, which would actual test a real component inside of a > > JBoss > > > > > > > > instance. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This will get us more coverage, but will also encourage > > > > > > > developers to > > > > > > > > make smaller, simpler tests for stuff and make it more likely > > > > they > > > > > > > > will run them, as it won't take forever. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, on the subject of build systems and testsuites, I have > > been > > > > > > > > toying with the idea of allow Java and Jython tests to be run > > > > > > > > together. Using Jython it will be faster to throw together > > > > > > > small and > > > > > > > > functional tests with much less code and a lot less > > > > > > > trouble. We would > > > > > > > > still need Java tests to run stuff that is type dependant, > > > > > > > but the two > > > > > > > > could live together happy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The build system overhaul is a dependency of this I believe. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have been planning on doing all of the above... just I > > > > > > > haven't had > > > > > > > > the time to make any progress. Also I really want to > > > > > > > finish the basic > > > > > > > > command line console framework. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fuck, I need my boss to stop making me work on their lame ass > > > > > > > > projects. Who cares about that shit really... bah! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --jason > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -dain > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jason Dillon wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Can I get anyone who knows anything about Ant based > > > > > > > build systems > > > > > > > > > > (extensions, helpers, whatever) to send me some > > > > > > > feedback on both > > > > > > > > > > positive and negative experiences they have had. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is becoming very apparent that we need to overhaul the > > > > build > > > > > > > > system > > > > > > > > > > to meet the current and future needs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would appreciate any input you have. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --jason > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > This SF.NET email is sponsored by: AMD - Your access to > > > > > > > the experts > > > > > > > > > on Hammer Technology! 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