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From: Stefano Mazzocchi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Organization: Apache Software Foundation
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 11:08:10 +0100
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: AW: [Proposal] Jetspeed: release and work plan
[Jon, please forward to the jetspeed list]
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > I see Cocoon as a very good conceptuallization of a "rendering engine" (our
> > screen and printing driver and graphics libraries, if you follow the
analogy),
> > and in Cocoon 2 we can have good solutions for having Model/View/Controller
> > webapps. While Cocoon is more oriented to publishing than to webapps, I
think
> > they are shifting their views as Cocoon 2 proceeds.
> >
> > Other views on that?
> >
> > N.B. My knowledge of Cocoon 2 is really shallow. I have feelings more than
> > certainties. WRT Turbine, I have looked at the code and I'm following the
list
> > since august or september, so I'm more informed.
>
> I think that Cocoon2 will be a step in the right direction regarding webapps
> over Cocoon1, but I'm still not convinced that all of the webapp MVC goals
> have been solved like they have been solved in Turbine.
I completely agree: it's a first step, but the matter is complex and we
already agreed that "publishing" and "web applications" are not
independent.. thus we need a single framework that takes care of both.
Is cocoon2 the end of this? no, I don't think so either.
But at the same time, we want to try things out, expecially given the
compiled sitemap concept cocoon2 has which is extremely powerful.
At the end, I don't know, it's up to you guys to decide if it's worth
using or not... at the same time, please, let us know if something is
wrong or missing so that we can learn and improve.
It's not a competition, it's a convergence.
I picture a future where only one framework exists... there is no need
for two. If this will be called Cocoon or Turbine or Whatever doesn't
really make any difference for both me and Jon, as long as things are
done the way we like and they way you like it.
But you have to know the alternatives before choosing the right
direction, don't you think? I personally believe that Jetspeed2 should
be based on Cocoon2. Of course, I'm biased. But Cocoon2 design fits
perfectly in what jetspeed2 needs.
> Given that Stefano has decided to drop off the planet, I'm also not certain of
> the future of Cocoon 2 as well. :-(
Believe me, the future of Cocoon2 has never been so bright. I decided to
step back at this point because there was nothing more I could add to
the picture, being the design of the things I could help on finished and
agreed upon.
> I understand that any good project can
> have good people step up and take charge, just like this project,
Exactly. A project even gets healthier or dies. I bet on the first one
for Cocoon. In fact, I'm betting a lot more than it shows :)
> I'm just not
> convinced that Cocoon2's webapp goals are of completely sound design yet.
I don't either, but I trust the people there and I trust the fact that
oss dynamics will choose the right direction for the community... which
will be the right direction for me as well.
> Turbine has a primary goal of webapp design for nearly 3 years now and I think
> that we have pretty much gotten most of it worked out...Cocoon2 is still
> learning what the right way to do things is.
There is a big design difference between the two projects: Turbine is
programmer centric, Cocoon is not. Jon believes web apps and publishing
are independent things, one could have turbine as a servlet filter and
cocoon as the proper servlet... I thought about the concept and it works
for many things, but not for all.
But at the same time I agree with him, cocoon2 has a long way to go for
web apps... but we also see the mistakes that Turbine did and solved
over the years, so catching up is quicker.
> So, my advice is to tread lightly and carefully.
This is the same exact advice I'd give.
Just one thing: don't rule Cocoon2 out because it's young... try it out
when it's finished and see if it works for you... if not, well, either
help or change.
Cocoon2 will evolve anyway, but any help is an important way to make
convergence quicker and communities bigger and stronger.... in the
Apache spirit, a happy community is all that matters, if you use Turbine
or Cocoon or both or your own framework, it doesn't matter, as long as
this project is alive and kicking.
Keep up the good work.
--
Stefano Mazzocchi One must still have chaos in oneself to be
able to give birth to a dancing star.
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Friedrich Nietzsche
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