David, it could not be put better. I agree whole-heartedly with you. My life is fuller with a mixture of blind people and sighted people in it. I would not want to be restricted to one or another.
Bye for now, Carolyn -----Original Message----- From: David Moore [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Friday, February 5, 2016 3:26 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Improving my teaching approach and/or sensitivity Hi, You need to be able to teach a blind person their way of doing something, and be able to show a sighted person how to do something their way. Like it or not, we live in a world where the sighted are the majority. Therefore, we should speak their lingo. Therefore, a blind person needs to want to learn how to do everything the sighted way. That is how you can have sighted friends and spouses much easier. If a blind person only wants to relate to another blind person that is their choice, but I think that it is a bad choice. We as blind people need to do things our “blind” way while at the same time understanding how the sighted does everything so we can relate to them. We as blind people should know how to talk and communicate with a sighted person just as well as a blind person. For example, I say that I watch TV. I really do and love it. I really think of it as watching TV even though I can’t see the TV. I watch it in my mind. So much can be done in the mind without being able to do it in the physical. For me, I often feel more comfortable with sighted people, because they are not always going on about how they can see. However, most blind people I have met constantly talk about their blindness to each other, and always talk about the same thing like Ham radios. I drive two friends’ cars in parking lots. I once drove a block, not seeing, to pick up a girl for a date with her car. I did it for fun. We need to think how the sighted think, because they are the majority and that is just life. This is totally different than African Americans acting white, or White people acting like African Americans. Here, we are talking about race and culture. Being sighted or blind is not a culture. I would never want to think that there is a blind culture and a sighted culture. If blind or sighted think like that, I really pity them. We are one in this world, and we should all want to learn from another and feel totally confortable with people totally different than we are. I tutor sighted people math by drawing the sighted graphs without seeing. I took the time to learn how math looks to a sighted person. When I tutor a blind person math, I use Braille, or any tool that that particular blind person needs to learn the subject. The blind and the sighted should never think that there is a line separating them and let us all be one. Have a great one. From: Brad Martin <mailto:[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, February 4, 2016 9:26 PM To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> Subject: Re: Improving my teaching approach and/or sensitivity This whole conversation has been fascinating to me now that I've had time to read it. It all goes back to my original concept of Frame of Reference. I'm the opposite of Brian. Brian is sighted, and spends his days trying to help blind people learn software. I am blind, and spend my days trying to help sighted people learn software. If my volunteers took the approach, "You can't teach me unless you do things the way I do them," I'd be out of a job. I can't do them the way the volunteers do them. That's not discrimination. That's reality. What we have hear is a need to adapt one's descriptions to the task at hand. This morning, for instance, I was teaching my tax center coordinator how to access our appointment schedule. How I would do it with JAWS: Load the page. Press Insert F7 for the links list. Press the letter s until I hear Sign In, then press enter. How Sam (who is sighted) does it: Load the page. Click on Sign-in in the upper right corner of the window. Problem: I didn't know Sign-in was in the upper right corner of the window, because it's almost the first thing JAWS reads. So I just assumed it was somewhere near the top of the screen, but I had no idea whether it was left, right or center. Once Sam told me it was in the upper right corner, I was able to store that knowledge away to interact with Gloria and Jim, who also needed the information. It's all about purpose. One of the most important things I teach in Taxwise software is how to link from one form to another. The way I have to do it is to hit Enter on the line to enter Forms mode, then press F9, then get out of forms mode and hit Control End to go to the bottom of the page, then use the arrow keys to find "new" and "existing" and then select the form I want. Do you think that helps my sighted volunteers? No. For them the instructions are: Click on the line you need on the 1040. Click the green arrow next to that line. Click the little piece of paper with the chain attached to it. Click either New or Existing depending on whether the form is already in your return. Select the form you want. Would I ever use the second instruction set myself? Absolutely not. Does knowing the second instruction set make me a better teacher to my volunteers? You bet. And I work in rooms full of sighted volunteers, so if I intend to be good at my job of teaching them how to do your taxes, I'd better know how to reach them in the way that makes the most sense to them and taps into their frame of reference. I think that is Brian's point. If you never need to interact with sighted people then perhaps you don't need to know their jargon. Actually, I was surprised how many people have never double clicked before. Personally, I would find not knowing that jargon limiting, but that's because in my day-to-day it would be. In your day-to-day it might not be. Different strokes. Brad On 2/4/2016 3:34 PM, Jean Menzies wrote: Hello Brian, You said: The point I was trying to get across, and it seems what I've said has had limited success in that department, is that any user of a computer had better understand how the general jargon of computer use relates to their actual technique of accomplishing a given action. My response: But why should I struggle to learn the intricacies of “sighted world jargon” such as mouse click vernacular when I don’t need to? Yes, I know how to use the Jaws left and right click simulations, and when and how I use them. But does it really matter that I understand the relationship to a real mouse? E.g., that left click is select, for instance? It sounds like an effort not toward computer literacy, but toward making the blind user fall more squarely into the sighted user camp. Yes, I understand computerese instructions I find on the Internet, and have no trouble using them. (except for when it tells me to click on things JAWS can’t find.) But that’s another story. I agree with the poster that a more appropriate use of language here would be to “select” something, etc. In other words, name the action/result, rather than referencing it through sighted jargon. Jean From: Brian Vogel <mailto:[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, February 4, 2016 1:13 PM To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> Subject: Re: Improving my teaching approach and/or sensitivity On Thu, Feb 4, 2016 at 12:10 pm, Soronel Haetir mailto:[email protected] wrote: Her blindness stemmed from an unformed visual cortex rather than anything actually wrong with her eyes. It turns out those same brain circuits are involved in picture development whether something is seen or not. So even the assumption that someone can relate to that sort of description is not necessarily well founded. Soronel, Which circles right back around to ground zero. I have definitely been trying to describe my "general client" without getting too bogged down in the idiosyncracies that can and do pop up as a direct result of an individual's sensory history. I actually do what you've mentioned as far as giving directions and, for instance, have never used the phrase, "swipe over that text to select it," because that method of selection means nothing, or virtually nothing, to anyone who has never been capable of using it and is of no help even to those who did and could, but aren't able to now. The point I was trying to get across, and it seems what I've said has had limited success in that department, is that any user of a computer had better understand how the general jargon of computer use relates to their actual technique of accomplishing a given action. I actively teach both, tying the two together. As far as my personal attempts to customize my instruction to a given client, I don't think I could make it any more clear than I have that I do, indeed, do this as a standard practice. It just goes with the territory. If ever, "one size fits all," were blatantly false it's in the case of one-on-one instruction for assistive technology of any variety. Brian -- Brad Martin [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> My Facebook page where I post online shopping coupons and deals: facebook.com/ucoupons <http://www.facebook.com/ucoupons> My SmarterBucks signup link <http://bit.ly/1w5FCPu> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- -- JFW related links: JFW homepage: http://www.freedomscientific.com/ JFW List instructions: To post a message to the list, send it to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to [email protected] Archives located at: http://www.groups.io/g/jfw/threads Alternative archives located at: http://n2.nabble.com/JAWS-for-Windows-f2145279.html If you have any concerns about the list, posts received from the list, or the way the list is being run, do not post them to the list. Rather contact the list owner at [email protected]. -=-=- Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent to this group. 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