http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:British_Isles_Euler_diagram_15.svg
CE From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Subject: RE: [LegacyUG] Burial Location as a Cemetery Event Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2013 21:46:20 -0600 RonIs there a good source for UK current location hierarchy on-line anywhere, or published? After a bit of research, I think we are hung up on semantics. In the UK, the top-level entity is the “United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland”. That is the formal name and how it is listed on the list of member “countries” of the United Nations. At the second-level are the Countries of England, Scotland and Wales, the region/province/country of Northern Ireland (none of which are independent members of the United Nations), and also the British Crown Dependencies of Isle of Man, Bailiwick of Guernsey, and Bailiwick of Jersey (latter two are separate parts of the Channel Islands), and 14 British Overseas Territories (Bermuda, Cayman Islands, Falkland Islands, etc). So while we need to be mindful of the terminology, the top 2 levels of the structure still work for both the US and the UK. In case you hadn’t noticed, locations are a bag of worms even within the US. The US also has territories such as Puerto Rico, Guam, and American Samoa. The District of Columbia is a special case. None of these are states, but all of them are second-level locations. Louisiana doesn’t have “counties”, they have “parishes”. There are plenty of towns and cities that straddle county lines, some states have townships which fall somewhere between a town and a county, and then there is New York City which encompasses 5 counties usually referred to as boroughs. The state of Virginia has “Independent Cities” which are not considered part of any county, even if they’re geographically located fully within a county. Bottom line is, I think John’s hierarchy for UK locations works well and is accurate (except for the Channel Islands which should be separated to Guernsey and Jersey). BTW, I think “shore” name was just a typo for “short” name. Perhaps we should change our terminology for the top-level to “Nation” (consistent with UN) and the second-level to “Country/State/Province/Territory”. That’s a bit long, so maybe it needs to be a location specific option. Probably need location specific labels for the remaining levels as well. From: Ron Ferguson [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2013 6:18 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [LegacyUG] Burial Location as a Cemetery Event Oh dear, John. There are times when I wonder where you are coming from. Take your first two paragraphs, you mention Georgia as being an exception, you may be right, I don’t know, or even care, but the rest of the world do not know what states the abbreviations stand for. Then you go on “That said, leaving out the country name in the US, is sort of chauvinistic”, well it is not sort of chauvinistic – it is! You go on with respect to ourselves, The Brits, and Ireland: “I personally append country UK to England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, Channel Islands, Isle of Mann, and Ireland (pre-independence) and use those country names as States. (The GeoDB allows for this...) However, in the shore name, I clip off the ", UK" as that reads better in reports.” Well, I don’t know what a “shore name is, perhaps an American GeoDB invention to cover countries which do not fit the American pattern. But then I don’t use the Geo9DB for anywhere outside of the USA, because for most places it doesn’t work. You illustrate this perfectly by adding UK to its constituent COUNTRIES, and even worse append it to two countries that are not, and never had been part of the UK viz. The Isle of Man and the Channel Isles. For Information, We are The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. The geographical area (not political nor state) of Great Britain comprises England, Scotland and Wales. Got it – A united *kingdom* – a place united under a king (or to be non-sexist a monarchy). The Principality of Wales was created by William 1 who gave it to his son. and subsequently Scotland in 1707 and Ireland joined, initially the Kingdom of GB and subsequently the UK. I very much regret if the facts interfere with convenience, but then we have never accepted the rewriting of history by anyone. Ron Fergusonhttp://www.fergys.co.uk/ From: John B. Lisle Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2013 8:48 PMTo: [email protected] Subject: Re: [LegacyUG] Burial Location as a Cemetery Event Paula, I think with the exception of Georgia, the names of the states in the US are different from any current country in the world, so the confusion should be minimal when leaving out the country for US locations. That said, leaving out the country name in the US, is sort of chauvinistic. but is reasonable if the bulk of your audience is US based. I personally append country UK to England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, Channel Islands, Isle of Mann, and Ireland (pre-independence) and use those country names as States. (The GeoDB allows for this...) However, in the shore name, I clip off the ", UK" as that reads better in reports. Global organizations like FamilySearch will require the United States be added. It is all personal choice in the long run, unless you are working as a professional for a client and have to conform to their standards. The key is to be consistent. They you can change it more easily! john. 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