s/think/thing :-P
On 02/09/15 14:26, Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas wrote:
Thanks John for your encouragement. I will share advances when they
are ready. The think about Pharo is that is uniform, interactive and
integrated, while the classical dev environment has a lot of
friction/fracture/non-interativity which makes the learning/modifying
curve pretty high.
Cheers,
Offray
On 02/09/15 12:53, john lunzer wrote:
Integrating IPython fully into Leo is high on my wants list but I
fear that my time and my skill level will not allow me to complete
that anytime soon. I've looked at Spyder's code for how they
integrate IPython (which they do quite well) and it's quite daunting.
In the meantime I am grateful we at least have ILeo because it allows
me to dig around Leo's internals interactive at least somewhat.
I've spent a little time trying to wrap my brain around smalltalk but
it made my head hurt so I put it aside. I gave the article a quick
read-through. You're certainly right that manipulating Leo's innards
to modify or extend it beyond it's current capabilities requires a
lot of knowledge. Pharo is intriguing as it tries to unify the
technologies needed to ease extensibility (if I understand it correctly).
Please keep us updated on your progress with your outliner. I'm sure
Leo developers will someday gain inspiration from it!
On Wednesday, September 2, 2015 at 12:05:35 PM UTC-4, Offray Vladimir
Luna Cárdenas wrote:
Je je, no offense taken. I would like to see some
cross-pollination between projects, but mine is not mature enough
yet. Anyway the idea of mixing the interactivity of IPython with
the "organic way" of Leo trees for writing was an idea I want to
explore long time ago. For me Smalltalk beats almost everything I
know in terms of learnability and interactivity, once you get the
mantra "everything is an object". Some details of this travel here:
http://mutabit.com/offray/static/blog/output/posts/grafoscopio-idea-and-initial-progress.html
<http://mutabit.com/offray/static/blog/output/posts/grafoscopio-idea-and-initial-progress.html>
Cheers,
Offray
On 02/09/15 09:28, john lunzer wrote:
I think it's the highest honor for Leo to have "clones" (forgive
the pun and diminutive term) being made in other
languages/platforms. More seriously, it's awesome that Leo can
inspire such projects!
On Tuesday, September 1, 2015 at 12:11:29 PM UTC-4, Offray
Vladimir Luna Cárdenas wrote:
Thanks John for this.
I'm now making my own outliner for interactive
documentation, kind of a combination of Leo and IPython but
in pharo smalltalk, so I'm using Leo less, but the community
and its talks are a permanent source of inspiration.
Cheers,
Offray
On 30/08/15 15:23, john lunzer wrote:
A new user recently said to me, "Leo is powerful and
flexible -- and complex and bewildering". This is true. I
believe it is always the goal of developers to make their
software less complex and bewildering but keep in mind that
Leo has been in development for over 20 years and has ~1.5
million lines of code (IIRC). This puts it right up there
with Vim and Emacs in terms of maturity. My own experience
with Vim and Emacs have been quite similar to my experience
with Leo. All three are powerful and flexible and complex
and bewildering in their own right.
I believe with tools of this weight and impact, there will
always be an investment in learning them. They're all vast
forests of features filled with hidden treasures and in the
case of each of them he/she that invests in the tool will
be rewarded for their effort. It is, however, the
responsibility of the community (led by the developers) to
help make that treasure hunt as enjoyable and adventurous
as possible, as any good treasure hunt should be.
And this is where Leo does not falter, in the helpfulness
of its community (small though it may be). I will reiterate
what Edward has said many times, do not struggle on your
own if you are lost, confused, or bewildered. Please ask
questions. If the documentation or examples do not meet
your needs, please ask questions. In my own experience as a
once new user (though there may be the occasional
disagreement) you will not be chided, scorned, or belittled
but will be met with more even more help than you
originally asked for.
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