A law means only this: "what is not explicitly forbidden is allowed." If you talk about biological laws, then I should remind you that humans are social animals and as such have herd mentality. It is rare that any animal lives solo, not forming a group. A herd mentality will always seek a leader, a shepherd to guide the sheep. Man never ever lived outside any social order or without a leader. A leader in the past was a shaman, or other Wiseman. Unfortunately, it leads to abuse and corruption. . The natural law can be cruel. Only strong or intelligent can survive. When you have two trees growing too close to each other, one will kill the other by sapping all resources to itself. The same goes for stars which will devour each other if too close. Thinking of this, think of human overpopulation.... There has never been a time in human history where man would not be a part of a social group and had no leader.
The only right a man has is a right to live and a right die on his own. You can derive all liberties from this basic right. Nothing exists independently of consciousness as there is nobody to observe anything. Anna ----- Original Message ----- From: Edward J. Williamson To: [email protected] Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2005 6:36 PM Subject: objective vs subjective Re: [Libertarian] Re: Socialism/Capitalism of the Author Natural laws exist independently of consciousness. The fact that existence exists independently of any conscious thought is axiomatic. Whether or not man existed has no bearing on gravity or any other immutable natural/scientific law. Man may ascribe names and labels, and study the existence and applications of those laws, but they exist independently of our conscious existence. --- In [email protected], "Anna" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > < Gravity IS a natural law and you just stated that you could measure > it. > > > Nothing can be really measured. All measurements are relative. Gravity is not a natural law. When you leave the earth, there is no gravity, is there? > Gravity is created by mass of an object affecting the space time fabric. Without the object, there would be no gravity. Without a man peesent, there would be no laws. > Anna > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Paul > To: [email protected] > Sent: Monday, November 21, 2005 5:30 PM > Subject: objective vs subjective Re: [Libertarian] Re: Socialism/Capitalism of the Author > > > --- In [email protected], Deus Ex Machina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > Paul [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > Ok, so are you denying that we have sole dominion over our own lives > > > and body (including the organisms within them)? This means you're > > > saying that someone else can have more of a claim on your body than > > > you do. This is the exact opposite of the premise of libertarianism. > > > > > > Either that or you are denying that natural law exists. Which is > it? > > > > both. the current system already doesnt give you rights to your own dna. > > > Oh, so you're saying you're not a libertarian. That's all you had to > say. Anyone that denies that we own our own DNA, and that we have > sole dominion over ourselves (and the organisms within ourselves) is > not a libertarian. Nor would any libertarian on earth say that one > person would have any claim to the body of another. > > > > > > > > Do you deny that gravity exists or do you deny that we own ourselves? > > > > > > you can measure gravity, how do you measure natural law? > > Gravity IS a natural law and you just stated that you could measure > it. Natural rights are a subset of natural law, and rights can't be > measured, but the violation of rights can be measured. The ability to > measure something is not a requirement for its existance. Can you > measure love? Do you deny that love exists? > > > > > > > > One can not be a libertarian while denying natural law, natural > > > rights, or sole dominion over our lives and bodies (including the > > > organisms within). > > > > > > If you're not a libertarian, I understand completely. Then it makes > > > sense that you're claiming that some organism living in a person's > > > body has more of a claim on that person's body than they do for > > > themselves, but if you are a libertarian, you know this is bullshit. > > > > > > You either take self-ownership as a fact or you don't. There is no in > > > between. > > > > > > even your position is not self consistent if you claim a person as > > dominion over there own body then an unborn child should have dominion > > over its own body, just because it gets food from the mother means > > nothing. > > > > Vic > > > > Wrong. My position is 100% consistent at all times. An "unborn > child" has no rights because there is no such thing as an unborn > child. Until the moment it leaves the body of the host, it is a > biological parasite. And as I said, nothing inside my body has any > rights because I alone own my body and all of its contents. I have > sole dominion over my body and make all life and death decisions for > the organisms within the body and even for my body. Nobody else on > earth has any claim to my body, including the organisms within my > body. The combined population of the planet earth minus me has no > legitimate say what-so-ever in what I do or don't do with my body or > the organisms within. > > ALL LIBERTARIANS....I repeat....ALL LIBERTARIANS believe in complete > self-ownership of our body and everything inside of our body. > > > > > > > > > > > ForumWebSiteAt http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Libertarian > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > a.. Visit your group "Libertarian" on the web. > > b.. 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