True. What I was getting at is that morality can either be objective or relative. If it is objective, then it exists outside the material world. This is the Platonic view as opposed to a Nietzschean view of moral relativism. As such, objective morality could exist without a supreme being, but cannot be atheist. There has to be a higher plane where morality is beyond subjective human conventions. The creator does not need to be a supreme being in the monotheistic sense, but does need to be beyond the human, material plane.
This quote from Ayn: "My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute." is not strictly objectivist as it depends on man's subjective view of his own happiness. I'm NOT trying to claim Ayn's philosophy is not objective, so save the hate mail. I'm just saying that, if she defines her philosophy this way, it is not strictly objective. She has described her metaphysics as objective reality, but her ethics, which would be where morality falls, as self interest, which is entirely subjective. On Jan 1, 2006, at 1:48 PM, justo wrote: > Hold on Geof... Ayn Rand's Objectivism demonstrates how morality is > imbedded in her philosophy; and with no need for a supreme being. > > Cheers, > > Justo > www.NuGamers.com > Kingwood & Woodlands, Tx. Game Club > > "Life, Liberty, & Property Rights." > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > On Behalf Of geofgibson > Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2006 12:43 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: [Libertarian] Re: Fwd: The "W" In Christmas > > Your interpretation of the First Amendment must be twisted by your > atheism. > > The only violation of the 1st Amendment would be if someone was forced > to > pray. Any voluntary prayer is totally within the free exercise of > religion. > Even those who are compelled to attend public schools are in no way > compelled to pray. > > > > "When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one > people > to > dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, > and > to > assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station > to > which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent > respect > to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the > causes > which impel them to the separation." > > "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created > equal, > that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable > Rights, > that > among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." > > > > These both show that a) a creator, or God is the source of natural > law, > and > that b) the Founders were not secularists. > > There is no morality without an authority. Try reducing your natural > law > and secular morality down to their source and you come up with > nothing. > Without a creator you have nothing to create values. If there is no > spiritual power, then why does life, or even liberty have value? If > all > there is, is what we have in the material world, then there is no > reason > to > live or strive to excel. > > > > _____ > > From: [email protected] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > On > Behalf Of Paul > Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2005 10:16 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: [Libertarian] Re: Fwd: The "W" In Christmas > > > > The 1st amendment isn't "weakened" by school prayer, it's utterly > violated. The 1st amendment is not merely to prevent a government > sanctioned religion (which is what this is), it's here to keep all > government out of religion and all religion out of government. The > United States Government and its laws didn't come from Judeo-Christian > ethics, biblical teachings, or monotheism. They came from natural law > and secular morality. > > I'm an atheist, and I say if we're going to have any religious > doctrine posted in courthouses, that it only be Muslim teachings, and > prayers in school only if they're on prayer rugs pointed toward Mecca, > and our money should say "Allah be Praised" instead of "In God We > Trust". And when you go to court, you should swear on the Quran. > > How about that? This is equally appropriate as what's happening right > now. > > > > --- In [email protected], "justo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > Mark, it is whining. The 1st Amend is not at all weakened by school > > prayer, plays, or what-ever. As long as the State does not back a > > religion, there is no issue here. If it' your tax dollars that > concerns > > you and how they are being misspent by local and Federal Gov. you're > > overlooking the many other public school waste that's going on right > > under your nose. > > > > I'm an atheist, so there's no reason for me to defend any particular > > religion or school prayer or 10C's on some court-house. I simply > don't > > see the threat of "modern" Christians, Muslims, Jews, etc. wanting > to > > place their mark on society in one way or another. As long the > State > > does not impose or spend your tax dollars to this end, the 1st Amend > is > > not at all being eroded in any way. > > > > Property rights should be our focus; the corner stone of our > liberty. > > And, when I say property rights. I mean in every regard; both > tangible > > and intangible. We should focus our attention of the core issues > that > > erode that freedom. "coercion" by special groups who want > entitlements > > and special laws that favor them and achieve all this by tamping > into > > our pockets with all sorts of tax schemes. > > > > Cheers, > > > > Justo > > <HYPERLINK "http://www.NuGamers.com"http://www.NuGamers.com> > www.NuGamers.com > > Kingwood & Woodlands, Tx. Game Club > > > > "Life, Liberty, & Property Rights." > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > On Behalf Of mark robert > > Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2005 3:40 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: RE: [Libertarian] Re: Fwd: The "W" In Christmas > > > > Justo, > > > > > > > > I agree that discussing getting the gov out of schools and ending > > their "schemes" is important. But I disagree that discussing what > > qualifies as a violation of the fist part of the first amendment > > is "whining". > > > > > > > > -Mark > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > You're not the only one paying for the public schools and it > > really makes no sense to > > equate separation of church and state with a Christmas school > > play or > > what ever that was. There's a huge difference between State > > sanctioned > > religion and a Christmas show on a public school stage. > > > > IMHO, this is picking pepper out of fly-sh!t and only ;ends > > itself to > > entertain us. The subject of substance that should be addressed > > is > > coercive tax schemes used to fund public education. > > Unfortunately, we > > all prefer to go on whining about church & state issues, from > > both > > sides, than take the necessary steps to end social engineering > > taxation > > schemes. > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > Justo > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ForumWebSiteAt HYPERLINK > > "http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Libertarian"http://groups.yahoo.com/ > group > /Lib > ertarian > > > > > > > > SPONSORED LINKS > > > > Libertarian > > <HYPERLINK > > "http://groups.yahoo.com/gads? > t=ms&k=Libertarian&w1=Libertarian&w2=Engli > "htt > p://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Libertarian&w1=Libertarian&w2=Engli > > > > sh+language&w3=Political+parties&w4=Online+dictionary&w5=American+polit > i > > cs&c=5&s=108&.sig=jGQnaRhfv4RQgZXyK4kr1w> > > English > > <HYPERLINK > > "http://groups.yahoo.com/gads? > t=ms&k=English+language&w1=Libertarian&w2= > "htt > p://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=English+language&w1=Libertarian&w2= > > > > English+language&w3=Political+parties&w4=Online+dictionary&w5=American+ > p > > olitics&c=5&s=108&.sig=QWSjIRDd7cCvA3JjWf5fnQ> language > > Political > > <HYPERLINK > > "http://groups.yahoo.com/gads? > t=ms&k=Political+parties&w1=Libertarian&w2 > "htt > p://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Political+parties&w1=Libertarian&w2 > > > > =English+language&w3=Political+parties&w4=Online+dictionary&w5=American > + > > politics&c=5&s=108&.sig=Nmlb2J_kcrDDcS9fz-a4eg> parties > > > > Online > > <HYPERLINK > > "http://groups.yahoo.com/gads? > t=ms&k=Online+dictionary&w1=Libertarian&w2 > "htt > p://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Online+dictionary&w1=Libertarian&w2 > > > > =English+language&w3=Political+parties&w4=Online+dictionary&w5=American > + > > politics&c=5&s=108&.sig=tfMLc2NuNqcAdgFcVdgR3Q> dictionary > > American > > <HYPERLINK > > "http://groups.yahoo.com/gads? > t=ms&k=American+politics&w1=Libertarian&w2 > "htt > p://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=American+politics&w1=Libertarian&w2 > > > > =English+language&w3=Political+parties&w4=Online+dictionary&w5=American > + > > politics&c=5&s=108&.sig=Q4Bxp3h_3TNlBQAgwWP-kw> politics > > > > > > _____ > > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > > > * Visit your group "Libertarian > > <HYPERLINK > > "http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Libertarian"http://groups.yahoo.com/ > group > /Lib > ertarian> " on the web. > > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms > of > > Service <HYPERLINK > "http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/"http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> > . > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > ForumWebSiteAt HYPERLINK > > "http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Libertarian"http://groups.yahoo.com/ > group > /Lib > ertarian > > > > > _____ > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > > > * Visit your group "HYPERLINK > "http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Libertarian"Libertarian"; on the web. > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > HYPERLINK > > "mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > subject=Unsubscribe"Libe > rtar > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the HYPERLINK > "http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/"Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > _____ > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.9/217 - Release Date: > 12/30/2005 > > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.9/217 - Release Date: > 12/30/2005 > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ForumWebSiteAt http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Libertarian > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > ForumWebSiteAt http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Libertarian > > > > SPONSORED LINKS > Libertarian > English language > Political parties > Online dictionary > American politics > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > ▪ Visit your group "Libertarian" on the web. > > ▪ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > ▪ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > Geof Gibson - [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can always send mail to soundsurgeon.tv as well http://soundsurgeon.tv http://variableproductions.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ForumWebSiteAt http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Libertarian Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Libertarian/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
