I would say she is "100%" correct, if it were not for my belief that there are no absolutes.
The market is not owned, it is an abstract concept to collectivley refer to the many buyers and sellers in a particular region or other for of colelctivity. The market is owned piece by piece, by the buyers and sellers with in it. The goverments rightfull duty to manage trade extends to foriegn trade, and securing trade. An American who is importing property is not a foriegner, and the goverment should not have auhtority more so than to ensure legality of there actions. Privlages come from a giver of that privlage Paul, who has the right to give or take away my right to decide what to do with my own property. Please explain the reasoning, in the simplest terms of me as the individual, not colelctive thought as you are trying to hid behind in using the market as if it were something more than an abstract term for identification. --- In [email protected], "Paul" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > You are absolutely, 100% false. > > First off the American markets are OWNED by the American people as a > whole and are regulated by the U.S. government legitimately. America > is not under any obligation to allow any foreign products into America > AT ALL. But when it does allow foreign goods to be sold in American > markets, it is extending a PRIVILEGE. You ask who is harmed when > foreign goods are sold here. The answer is American manufacturers. > > While I'm 100% in favor of free-market capitalism, (a 3% tariff does > not qualify as protectionism according to every Nobel prize winning > economist) I am still honest enough to admit that American businesses > face greater competition when foreign goods are brought here. As a > consumer and a Libertarian, I love this. If I were an American > manufacturer, I'd be pissed at those working for me in Washington if > they weren't at least collecting a tariff to lighten my tax burden. > > Let's say for a minute that you were in land without a government and > in this land, you and your neighbors decided to make an agreement with > each other to build a town, and in this town you make your own laws. > Each person in the town is an equal stockholder as it were and each > gets a vote. One of the things you all agree on is the Mayor and city > council will charge a tax on those who wish to sell products from > other towns so those who make goods locally won't have to deal with > having the market flooded with goods. > > The people of the town have the legitimate right to make this law, and > anyone who moves in after the law is created is subject to it. > > The people of the 13 colonies agreed that government would regulate > commerce in this way. If you were born after the Constitution was > created, and I assume you were, it applies to you and your imports too. > > Whether you like it or not, whether you agree with it or not, you are > subject to the laws of America. The Constitution is legitimate, > including the international commerce clause. > > > > --- In [email protected], Cory Nott <corynott@> wrote: > > > > You're wrong. A market, in the context of which we speak, is not a > physical entity that can be owned - it is simply a construct whereby > there is a willing buyer and a willing seller. Unless there is a 3rd > party being harmed by the transaction (for instance slavery or stolen > property), then there is no way the government can interfere without > initiating force. You argument is 100% authoritarian, not libertarian. > > > > > > > > > > > > Paul <ptireland@> wrote: > > There is no group rights, but there is public property. The markets of > > America belong to the American public. This is not collectivism, it's > > just a matter of having borders, sovereignty, and public property. > > > > Whether you admit it or not, every single thing I've said is both 100% > > true, and 100% libertarian. > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], <boyd.w.smith@> wrote: > > > > > > The flaw in this argument is the collectivist one. For there to be > > a violation of rights, each and every individual who rights are > > violated must have had their individual rights violated. There are no > > group rights. There are only individual rights and only individual > > violations of them. > > > > > > BWS > > > > > > From: Paul <ptireland@> > > > > First I wasn't shouting. I typed in caps for emphasis, so you would > > > > pay attention. The last time I checked, we were typing, and not > > > > speaking. > > > > > > > > Buying 1 camera for yourself is not the same as buying 10,000 > cameras > > > > for the purpose of selling in Americans markets and nothing you > > > > say or > > > > do will make it the same. > > > > > > > > Your claims that I'm supporting the initiation of force are utterly > > > > false. I support using force against those who violate the rights, > > > > person, or property of non-consenting others. > > > > > > > > Whether you like it or not, we have borders, and we have a > government > > > > and our government is a legitimate one. The valid scope and role of > > > > the government includes defending our person, property, and rights > > > > from infringement by others. > > > > > > > > The flaw in your logic is that you keep referring to bringing goods > > > > from another country into America as a "peaceful activity" when > it is > > > > no more a "peaceful activity" than is trespass. If I choose to camp > > > > out in your front yard without your permission and I refuse to > go, is > > > > that a "peaceful" activity? I'd say it isn't. It violates the > > > > property rights of the owner. In the case of America, the American > > > > people are the owners, and the government has been entrusted in > > > > securing our borders and keeping out those who would trespass by > > > > selling goods within our borders. > > > > > > > > You asked where we "draw the line" when it comes to "peaceful" > > > > activities. The lines are already drawn and they are on pretty much > > > > any map you can get your hands on. The borders of America are where > > > > we draw the line. > > > > > > > > If you want to bring foreign goods into America for sale in American > > > > markets, you may request permission for this PRIVILEGE. Bringing > > > > goods into America for sale is no more your right than is bringing > > > > American goods into a foreign for sale in their markets....which you > > > > don't unless they allow you the privilege. > > > > > > > > If you want to brew alcohol in your garage, and you can do so > without > > > > endangering your neighbors, you're free to do that. If you want to > > > > sell that alcohol inside any American state, you can do that. I > > > > consider any laws regarding the percentage of alcohol in each > > > > state to > > > > be illigitimate. If you want to export your alcohol out of the > > > > country, I don't think the American government has any > legitimate say > > > > about what you're exporting or how much you export BUT the country > > > > where the goods are going DOES have a legitimate say. They can > > > > require a tariff on your part, and if you refuse to pay the > tariff and > > > > smuggle your goods into the country, you are trespassing against all > > > > the people of that country. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ForumWebSiteAt http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Libertarian > > > > > > > > SPONSORED LINKS > > Libertarian English language Political parties > Online dictionary American politics > > > > --------------------------------- > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS > > > > > > Visit your group "Libertarian" on the web. > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ForumWebSiteAt http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Libertarian Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Libertarian/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
