OK Mark...want a point by point? On 6/24/06, mark robert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> John, > > > > > > You say I do not know what I am talking about. > > > > > > > > > > > > Correct. You do not. That makes you ignorant. You have not been there. You do not seem to realize it was the deal struck with the US government and the Ute that, if they gave up their traditional lands on which they hunted, and confined themselves to a 2 mile by 2 mile reservation with no flowing water, no grassland that could support cattle and no way farm, the government would provide their food. It is not welfare, it is a treaty, a business deal. This was signed in 1928, The Ute were the last group to be forced on a reservation. There IS no 'work' in the area...it is the least densely populated and largest county in the continental USA. There is no industry, no public transportation...the largest employer in San Juan County is the San Juan School District. Period. It is also a tremendously strong LDS stronghold. Most family providers among the Anglo LDS have 2 or 3 part time jobs because there is no work. They do not 'hire out'. YOUR suggestion is this: break your treaty because we want to now call it 'welfare' and stop all funding. The average person on the reservation makes less than $400 a month. So, in the USA, you want to stop providing food to people who have no means to provide for themselves because the government placed them in a county with no work available. If in an place where people need to resort to eating flour oil and salt 3 meals a day NOW, you suggest even THAT be stopped. and your reason was....WHAT? WELFARE HURTS THEM? Chief, less than 100 years ago these people flourished in a place that provided for their needs. They were stopped from doing that with the GUARANTEE that food and shelter would be made available for them. "Welfare' does nto exist...you are referring to government provided food and health care. Taking THAT away without replacing it with an ALTERNATIVE....THAT would surely *hurt* them. Indeed, it wold kill them very quickly. > Do you mean you > > disagree that welfare causes and maintains poverty? > > > I *MEAN* that this is NOT welfare and that when Americans have NO MEANS to provide for their children and themselves, it is actually the BEST thing for them to HAVE it provided instead of starving or dieing from the elements. If poverty exists because the Government interfered with existing systems and did not see fit to locate these people where work and education was available, you do NOT cut them loose until you DO provide those things. You list more conditions that are likely by-products of welfare. > > \ No, these people provided for themselves quite well before they were arrested and detained on a small parcel of land with no water supply and no arid land. This was done by the government. When it was protested, the government assured the Ute that, if this did not work ,they would not starve, that shelter, food and medical care would be provided. It has been done inadequately at best. The true dynamics of welfare have been widely established. For > > some info specific to Native Americans, see this: > > http://www.neoperspectives.com/NativeAmericans.htm > > Pretty paper Mark. Good work by the sociologists. All bullshit of course....causes and solutions are not mentioned. Perhaps you might provide them? See, without solutions you are simply putting forth the idea that these people be starved. Perhaps you might see where the 'Ugly American' term is appropriate. > We agree about military spending but why are you not consistent > when it comes to welfare spending? Well Mark that would be because of a few reasons. 1. They are two different animals. 2. If there is not a reason we spend massive amounts of money on military spending, what would the reason be to end spending of this kind without providing another option for these people? 3. The Government guaranteed to provide the funds for food water shelter and medical care when this treaty, aka business agreement, was struck. It is legal and binding. Clear it up for ya? > > > If you really want to help > > Native Americans on reservations, try to better understand the > > anti-solution called welfare. > > No, *when*, not *'if'* I wanted to help Native Americans I closed my business in Cape May NJ, moved to their reservation in Utah, signed on for two 1-year contracts as a VISTA volunteer and set up an Education Center, developed programs to assist them with education, set up a program for business education, set up a 12 step program , set up tutoring programs and worked as a tutor....while being paid $700 a month. Unlike you, I put my money where my mouth is. We do not agree that I am an example of an ugly American. Please > > stop the personal attacks > > No, *WE* do not agree on that. Anyone who puts money ahead of the lives > and wellbeing of the poorest Americans I have ever seen is indeed a good > example of this image of the *'Ugly American'*. It is not a 'personal > attack'...an example of *that* would have been *your* suggestion of > throwing these people to the wolves. > YOU seem to have strong opinions that do not fit *reality*, You speak about things you seem to have learned from *READING* instead of *DOING*. Your suggestions hold no *solutions*. They are not based on *reality* .They seem motivated by *finances and theory. *They ignore *legally binding agreements*. You offer no *alternatives*. In fact, your entire argument is steeped in *arrogance, superiority and ignorance*. A question: what is your level of education and what state do you reside in? Care to rebut? > -Mark > > ************ > {American jurors have complete Constitutional authority to vote > "not guilty" based on nothing more than a disagreement with the > case, no matter the evidence - despite the judge's instructions. > There is absolutely no obligation to vote "guilty" to arrive at a > unanimous verdict. Get on a jury, stand your ground, and fulfill > its other main purpose: to counteract abusive government and > unjust lawsuits. > See www.fija.org > [Please adopt this as your own signature.] } > > ------------------- > > Sorry Mark, if YOU haven't visited that place and if YOU do not > know their > history than YOU do not know what you are talking about. > > I have seen grandmothers who are raising 10 grandkids and more > feed the > entire family on nothing but frybread for weeks at a time. Next > step: > STARVATION > > I have seen 5 year olds with ALL their teath pulled our from lack > of dental > care. > > I have seen kids who miss their school bus...the one they have to > walk 2 > miles or more to catch...turn around and go home because there > WAS no late > bus EVEN THOUGH the school district has money for one. > > Tell you what...when our government stops spending the money that > has added > up to 360 BILLION so far on a NEEDLESS USELESS WAR OF > AGRESSION...THEN you > can talk abotu cutting money that keepps these folks ALIVE. You > ever > consider THAT to be a MORE IMPORTANT TASK for the Libertatiians > than > STARVING KIDS WHO'S GRANDPARENTS SOLD HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF > ACRES AND A > WAY OF LIFE for the promise of SOMETHIGN MORE THAN FRYBREAD 3 > MEALS A DAY? > > People like you are what the 'Ugly American' was based on. > > Messages in this topic > <http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/_ylc=X3oDMTM0cnBrYWpzBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzI0ODE0BGdycHNwSWQDMTYwMDA2MDY4MgRtc2dJZAM0OTMwMgRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawN2dHBjBHN0aW1lAzExNTEyMTMzNDkEdHBjSWQDNDkyODQ-;_ylg=1/SIG=11sc70cfu/**http%3a//groups.yahoo.com/group/Libertarian/message/49284> > (8) Reply (via web post) > <http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/_ylc=X3oDMTJvN2g5ZW8zBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzI0ODE0BGdycHNwSWQDMTYwMDA2MDY4MgRtc2dJZAM0OTMwMgRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNycGx5BHN0aW1lAzExNTEyMTMzNDk-;_ylg=1/SIG=12iu9ufpl/**http%3a//groups.yahoo.com/group/Libertarian/post%3fact=reply%26messageNum=49302>| > Start a new topic > <http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/_ylc=X3oDMTJjcmV1ZTVyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzI0ODE0BGdycHNwSWQDMTYwMDA2MDY4MgRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNudHBjBHN0aW1lAzExNTEyMTMzNDk-;_ylg=1/SIG=11jb4komi/**http%3a//groups.yahoo.com/group/Libertarian/post> > ***************************************** > "We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang > separately!" ...Ben Franklin > > ****************************************** > *Are YOU Preparing For The November '06 Elections NOW??? * > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! 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