John, See below:
----------- Well Mark, good advice I won't be taking....not because it is not good, because I believe there is an avenue open to me that I am more suited for and will be more successful in. NOTE: I never said any such thing about social programs or the work of VISTA volunteers, please take care when putting things in my mouth. ---------- Of course you didn't say them, nor did I say you said them. I said them, in response to your description of your experience, as a characterization of typical govt social programs. Be carefully putting the words in my mouth that I put words in your mouth - lol. ------------ You miss a tremendous point.....change will only take place when education is in place...and Education is paid for with taxes. Do you stand against public education? ------------ As a matter of fact, yes. Most libertarians are against publicly funded education. Private schools are much better. The same elements of incompetence demonstrated by govt social programs are also present in govt schools. Plus, the curriculum is vulnerable to govt control. Someone like you should easily see this. You wanna quick lesson on the vast difference between govt and private enterprise? Just go to a big post office when it's busy. (Even though the post office is the most libertarian of all govt agencies [at least it supports itself through a real service], it still shows the contrast.) Now look at the faces of the employees behind the counters dealing with the public. None will likely be smiling or hurrying. The whole atmosphere is significantly worse (depressed and apathetic) than most similar sized businesses that deal with the public. Private businesses are more pleasant and cordial and aiming to please and compete. --------------- See, you are talking about business. Well, many of these folks have tried to start and run a business. They have good ideas and work hard, but when you can't write or read above 4th grade level and don't have the math skills to even ballance a checkbook, it isn't conducive to success. So, they ask outsiders to help them with the business and of things, and 9 out of 10 times get ripped royally. -------------- IMO, you are not thinking logically. Focus less on helping others start their businesses and more on starting your own. Get/hire them to help you. By pursuing your own success / business / happiness, you will be role modeling prosperity far better than "teaching" it. They will learn best by watching you. There is no better incentive to learn than the quest for riches. Math becomes easy when the numbers have $ signs and they are yours. --------------- They need to be proficent in the basic skills first, They will NOT trust outsiders to help. That is one reason the business I began this post about was successful...kids run the business. Not only do they make the chololate, they run the business. Elaine is a woman as honest and caring as the day is long, and these kids haven't learned not to trust outsiders yet. She walked them through the entire process and never took a dime in return....the true work only done by a volunteer. As I said, in that area, most people work several part time jobs to make ends meet, and taking enough time from your day to help set up a buisness for someone else would leave you not earning enough. You seem to think people are independently wealthy and can devote the time needed to assist the Ute and Navajo. Well, if you are, go on down to San Juan County and pitch in...as for me and everyone else I know, we need a salery to live on. ---------------- You thereby further enhance my point to start your own business instead. The whole idea of starting a business for another is chancy. YOU don't have the time; it's not THEIR business; as soon as you leave, it dies. All the dynamics are illegitimate. The good part about capitalism is that the best charity you can perform for another comes in the form of pure selfish profit motive. ---------------- THat said, it begins with education, and I am returning to the area to teach Secondary Eduication. One of my goals is to convince students to stay in school. ---------------- That's great but I know people that have stayed and stayed in school and aren't worth a dam and do nothing for the prosperity of themselves or the area. Teach free enterprise by example; I think these Native Americans may need that particular course the most. ---------------- Mark, you have ideas what work splendedly in the inner city or most rural areas....try to understand this is a unique place, and these are unique people. Education is first. Three or four generations ago, the Ute did not attend school.....they were stone age hunter/gatherer/raiders with modern day weapons. TOday they are captives on a place where almowst nothing will grow, where there is no transportation, heck there isn't even a cable running there for cable TV or high speed internet. People eat flour water and oil sometimes exclusively for weeks at a time, and they are not even allowed to go to their traditional hunting areas to bring back meat. ---------------- Opportunity is everywhere, but you will never find it by focusing on its lack. ---------------- zI am still confused....why are you concentration on this pittance spent by the government and ignoring the bleeding of our national treasury by the traitors in office right now? Is this your way of saying the poor have not earned a hand up, or that any government spending is waste? ----------------- You obviously have not been here long or browsed the archives. We concentrate on those things plenty and are not disproportionally concentrating on your issues. ----------------- Mark, give me one good reason why it is harmful to the people of the Ute reservation to keep a treaty that gave the exchange of tribal lands to the government in exchange for money that allowsthem to survive? HOW do you justify breaking a legal contract? HOW do you justify the abandonment of this group of people? WHY is this so necessary at this point in time? Is this about you and I being RIGHT at the expence of a group of people or is there concrete reasons that , if put into place, will change the lives of THESE people RIGHT NOW FOR THE BETTER? --------------- I believe I conceded the treaty part, in regard to whether it should be stopped. In principle, it would still breed apathy, but the principle of a contractual arrangement would trump cessation. I believe we have decided to focus on your involvement in a govt program instead, and the typical baggage that goes with that. Again, I agree with you that the treaty aid should not be stopped. -Mark -------------- ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Yahoo! Groups gets a make over. See the new email design. http://us.click.yahoo.com/XISQkA/lOaOAA/yQLSAA/KlSolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> ForumWebSiteAt http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Libertarian Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Libertarian/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
