----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Giramma
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2008 9:42 PM
Subject: Re: [Libertarian] Stop the War FOR Terror
BOB2: Chavez is a socialist and claims to be a Catholic, but NewsMax reports,
"The Catholic Church has been one of the most critical voices against the
leftist Venezuela president, who has in the past called the church
Doesnt matter who is vocal - they are Christians. Your statements were about
Islam culture and it being unique. I pointed out many examples of Christian
nations doing the same. Many of the Muslims are just as vocal in their own
countries - when permitted which is not always.
leadership a "tumor." Fidel Castro is an atheist, as were the Soviet leaders.
Gorbachev recently claimed he did not crush the revolt violently because of
Doesnt matter what the leaders are - they are still from a Christian nation
and culture.
BOB2: I question whether liberty is a universal basic human instinct. Most
Its one of the most basic instinct for individuals - to not be controlled by
others. However using it in excess or to gain liberty for oneself at the cost
of others is what leads to power grabs and much of the leaders today.
Middle East. Having their own tribe dominate is less important than liberty.
Americans are far from perfect, but American culture seems to respect the
individual more than what's found elsewhere.
Yeah, Patriot act... Not to mention how foreigners are treated. Guantanamo
Bay? Waterboarding? Need I go on? You are looking through some very heavily
fogged glasses here. Look at freedom rankings etc. The US not only is not at
the top, but is going down the list in recent years. You should be looking at
Switzerland and others instead.
BOB2: So why are the Palestinians bombing the Israelis daily?
First, its mostly Hezbollah doing the killing of Irsaelis. Second, if you
count the number of Israeli's that die at Palestinian hands versus Palestinians
at Israeli hands, you'll quicklky see why the Palestinians act out that way.
This is like asking why do the Iraqi's target the American's in Iraq.
Everytime an Israeli dies the news goes ape shit. But a dozen Palestinians
can die when the Israelis target the wrong house, and 10 are children but you
won't even hear of it on the US news. At least in Europe its reported. Its not
a fact of the US media hiding it - but more a fact that Americans just dont
care, so the news doesnt report it.
BOB2: I seriously doubt that. It has never happened. Americans interfered in
Europe, Japan, South Korea, Canada, and Latin America, yet those are among the
most free parts of the world. I think you're putting the cart
Yeah, Latin America is real free. Definitely tops of my list. So is Haiti,
Cuba, and many others the US interefered in. The ones that are free now, are
generally the ones that were able to throw off the US influence. Indonesia, and
even Greece in the 60's were all screwed up by the CIA.
before the horse. You might consider that the US interfered to prevent things
from getting worse. I see no great call for liberty from the Arab world.
Afghanistan.... Everywhere the US went, chaos followed until they were pushed
out. You really need to read up on moderm history, especially with regard to
the CIA's actions in the post WW2 era.
BOB2: What would Iran have had instead? I don't know the history. Was the
Shah installed and propped up to prevent the Soviets from getting the warm
water military port they lacked?
Check Wikipedia to see what Iran had before the Shah. I think you'll be quite
amazed.
BOB2: Regarding non-Muslim visits to Saidi Arabia, I am referring to
tourists. From the Lonely Planet: "In 1999, the first high-end tour groups
entered the difficult-to-visit nation, but visas remain officially restricted
to
What's to tour? :) There are a few things to see, but its not exactly a place
most tourist would want to go anyways. I enjoy myself when I go there, but I
have friends there. I go on business, and its quite easy.
In fact, its easier for an American to go to Saudi and a Saudi to go to
America......
US since 9/11, her friends and relatives still visit quite often. My
colleagues from Europe don't seem to have trouble getting here either. I do
experience more of a burden reentering the US, but that's a consequence of the
Islamist attacks on the US.
No its not. Its the result of power grabs. Search "Iceland blonde detained us
border". Thats just one story... I wont even bother to tell mine here, they
arent as bad as that..but...
BOB2: Good for Abdullah, who BTW was educated in the US and UK, and trained
in the UK military. More Western interference.
Interference is not equal to influence - again, read CIA history post WW2
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