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----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Giramma
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2008 10:24 PM
Subject: Re: [Libertarian] Stop the War FOR Terror
From: Peter
A lot of it is history. Everyone seems to forget longer term history where
Judao Christian countries were not that free. Inquisition anyone? just to name
one.....
BOB: Ancient history. None of us live in those times. The US did not exist
during the Inquisition, Crusades, Islamic conquest of the Middle East and
southern Europe, etc. It's academic.
History repeats itself. The fact that it is old (I dont believe its acient)
does not matter. Your assertation was one of religious basis. The Iniquisition
is at least as bad as what you see now, given the actual impact and the fact
that they didnt have the technology we do today, you might say it was worse.
Want something more recent? How about Chavez? Cuba? Haiti? Soviet Union? All
of those peoples were/are dominantly Christian. Oh I forgot one, Nazi Germany.
BOB: Wasn't it mostly the British and French that carved up the Ottoman
Empire and installed dictators and kings? I don't recall reading about the US
being involved. Many British and French intellectuals even today say the
The ones careved up post WW1 were British and French. However post WW2 the
Americans were everywhere and in each of those countries heavily messed with
since as well. The Americans were all over Cyprus, Lebanon, Jordan, Saudi,
Pakistan, Egypt..... You should check out Charlie Wilson's war, Legacy of
Ashes, just for two starters.
Arabs are incapable of democratic self-government. Of course, they may be
trying to rationalize their own post-war actions.
They are full of BS. Libertarian ideals alone should let you know that its a
basic human instinct and anyone is capable of this. They said that about the
whole Soviet block too, now look at Poland, Ukraine, and many others.
BOB: Why was it OK for the Ottomans to dictate over Arabs and other Muslims
in the Middle East? Why did the Palestinians not complain when Egypt and Jordan
were running Gaza and the West Bank, respectively?
Because Egypt and Jordan were not bombing them daily, restricting their
movement, cutting off supplies, etc. And because they are Arabs. Would there
be a big difference to you if the US capital was in California versus DC? What
if was moved to Mexico and the US was now under Mexican rule? People still
identify themselves by culture - and do not want to be ruled by other cultures
especially.
BOB: I could interpret that as evidence that 21st century Middle East Muslims
are not yet as civilized as 18th century Americans, who did a far better job at
self-government. Israel suffered a lot more interference than any of them, and
it thrives as a free and prosperous society -- without oil.
Israel is interfered with? Ha... More like Israel does whatever they want.
Israel is rarely interfered with.... 18th century Americans were already self
ruling. Give an Arab state self rule without American interference or external
pressures of American allies/proxies and it has the same chance to succeed as
any Christian nation.
BOB: From what my Iranian friends tell me, I doubt "everyone wanted rid of
the Shah" at the time. It sounds more like the radical Islamists, who were
My best friend left when the Shah was exiled. Some knew what the Ayatollah
really was - but most wanted the Shah gone. But some of those were also afraid
of the Ayatollah - but those that didnt understand what would happen put in the
Ayatollah because they wanted rid of the Shah. You might get Clinton because
people want Bush out. Not a 1:1, but you get the point. If the Shah hadn't been
installed and held up, there would be no Ayatollah now.
subsequently. I bet most Iranians had a lot more freedom under the Shah. Iran
was more modern and progressive from what I hear. The Saudi
BEFORE the Shah. You are mixing up leaders....It was more under the Shah
yes.. but you really need to look before the Shah andn also realize why they
wanted rid of the Shah.
Laden or something similar is the most likely successor. Until very recently,
non-Muslims were not allowed in Saudi Arabia (except when they needed help), so
it's rare that I meet someone who has been there. Yet the reports I read
describe a very backward culture. They wanna party like it's 1399.
Your misinformation fo the Middle East is really quite extreme. I think you
need to expand your horizons beyond reading American news print and talking to
other Americans, few of who have been there outside of military duty. Non
muslims have been allowed in Saudi for many many years. It's easier to get a
Saudi visa for me than an American one (No I'm not muslim). If you need an
American visa, all applicants are treated like potential criminals. The Saudi
embassy may require BS paperwork, but at least they treat applicants like
humans. And as bad as the Saudi border CAN be, I can tell you I've had MUCH
worse encouters at the US border, and since 2001 travellers are much more
likelky to have trouble at the US border rather then the Saudi one. For Saudi,
just dont take alcohol, drugs etc. The US border on the other hand they can
just harass you for no reason.
BOB: And what happens if King Abdullah allows full democracy in Jordan? I
hear it's majority Palestinian. Would it become just another territory for the
Palestinians to screw up? Arafat did try to murder Abdullah's father, King
Hussein, after all.
And most of those Palestinians have Jordanian citizenship and like the King.
Why? Jordan was one of the ONLY countries to WELCOME the Palestinians and allow
them to work, go to school, etc. And they are repeating it with Iraqi refugess.
Iraqi refugess still cannto work legally in Jordan, but last year (or maybe
year before) the King said all Iraqi refugee children can go to school - even
if it over burdens the system, he didn't want to make the situtation worse.
BOB: My interpretation is Turkey functions mostly because Ataturk left a
legacy of heavy-handed secularism, which is enforced aggressively by the
Turkish military. They use a kinder, gentler, version of religious oppression
than that used by Saddam and other Middle East secular dictators.
Well kind of. Its much more complex than that.
But what is MORE common in all of these countries, much more than the fact
that they are Muslim is that they are poor and opressed/interfered with.
BOB: Poor? Saudi Arabia? Kuwait? The Emirates? Lebanon? (Before the Muslims
got the upper hand over the Christians) Most of the 9/11 terrorists were not
poor at all.
The governments are rich, the people are poor. Only in Kuwait and Emirates do
any of the general population have real money.
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