On 18.09.2016 14:06, Xavi Drudis Ferran wrote:
> El Sun, Sep 18, 2016 at 12:13:24AM +0300, Tiberiu-Cezar Tehnoetic deia:
>> she hasn't requested the FSF's RYF certification of the Libreboot
>> laptops be revoked.

> Even if she wanted how could that work ? 
> 
> The only reason RYF certification should be revoked should be that the 
> certified hardware is found to have freedom problems unknown of when 
> it was certified (either new facts discovered or new analysis of the
> consequences of the facts previously known). It's not like minifree
> is going to recommend people to install windows on their products. 

Libreboot lead developer and Minifree director pointed us to her new
mail signature which recommends the Debian operating system
(distribution) instead of the GNU operating system.

On 17.09.2016 18:07, Leah Rowe wrote:
> Use a free operating system, GNU/Linux.
> https://www.debian.org/

Debian is not a fully free GNU/Linux distribution according to the GNU
FSDG and thus it's not endorsed by FSF:

https://www.gnu.org/distros/common-distros.html#Debian

Minifree still states it sells laptops with Trisquel preinstalled and
keeps the FSF's RYF certification mark on its products, but one can
expect this to change since she now recommends Debian (not GNU anymore,
and not Trisquel or other free GNU/Linux distribution instead of GNU).
If this nightmare continues, she might decide to boycott Trisquel too
(she also accuses Trisquel lead developer of prejudice and asks for his
resignation from the FSF).

> It would be not credible for the FSF to grant RYF just because someone
> wants to (they check their criteria are fulfilled). Likewise it would make
> no sense for FSF to de-certify something just because someone says so. 

According to the FSF's RYF Endorsement Agreement I signed, specifically
Section 11. Term and Termination, b) Termination, i. Termination by
Licensee:

Licensee may terminate this Agreement at any time by providing notice to
FSF and by discontinuing all use of the Certification Mark. Termination
in this manner shall be effective upon receipt of the  notice by FSF or
at such time (not to exceed thirty (30) days) specified in the notice
from Licensee.

> Checking the criteria needs to be triggered by someone requesting it, but 
> just as this trigger is not enough by itself to achieve certification, 
> a request for decertification would not be enough to decertify anything. 

Since this is the case when the hardware vendor wants to delimit herself
and her projects from FSF, according to the Endorsement Agreement, she
has the means to decertify her hardware products by sending a notice to
the FSF.

> Besides, if someone looses faith in a certifier it makes little sense
> to ask from them either new certifications or decertifications, because
> they no longer value their decisions.

Since such a decertification wouldn't be on grounds of the vendor not
respecting freedom (but it can become, if Minifree starts shipping
Libreboot laptops with Debian instead of Trisquel or instead of other
free distribution, in which case I believe FSF themselves would
terminate the endorsement agreement), I doubt this has potential to
affect the reputation of the FSF's RYF certification.

> What any seller can do at their choosing is to advertise or not the
> certification status of their merchandise. Although any seller
> considering that buyers may trust certifiers the seller does not trust
> may decide to continue advertising the certifications as long as
> they're true, because the information might be interesting to customers
> who don't share the same trust decisions.

Minifree still displays the fsf.org/ryf certification mark on their
Libreboot laptops.

> I don't really know exactly how to go on from here: 
> 
> - reconcilement, and staying in the previous situation ? 

I was happy about how things were before. Libreboot being a stable and
popular free software project with more and more contributors, then
Libreboot joining GNU, releasing new versions, adding new supported
hardware, including desktop and server boards and modern ARM hardware.
This was possible with the hard work of Libreboot lead developer and her
colleagues, the hard work of Trisquel lead developer and his colleagues,
and with a lot of endorsement from FSF, GNU and RMS.

> - libreboot fork in let's say GNUboot and libreboot and what kind of
> collaboration between them ? and who would lead the hypothetical
> GNUboot ?

I wish Leah would stop this nightmare and let (or even offer moral and
financial support to) the trans former employee to find her justice in
court if she believes she was wronged, while FSF continues to be
considered innocent until (if) proven guilty. I trust her leadership
skills to see that the trans friend, Libreboot project and Minifree have
nothing to gain from this scandal and that she is burning the bridges
with FSF and GNU.

> - libreboot goes on outside GNU, lead by Leah, and any unhappy 
>   libreboot contributors stay in coreboot only ? 

Since Coreboot also ships with nonfree blobs, we still need a
distribution of Coreboot which is fully free and can be easily endorsed.
Moreover, Libreboot build system is superior to Coreboot's and we still
need contributors to Libreboot's build system. Unless the Coreboot
project merges Libreboot's build system, which is probably not going to
happen.

> But still, I keep reading this stuff, just around Software Freedom Day. and 
> not feeling any happy.

None of us are. I wish this nightmare would stop and we'd try to go back
to how things used to be. A good sleep might help see the right course
of action.

--
Tiberiu

https://tehnoetic.com
https://ceata.org

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