Linux-Misc Digest #83, Volume #19 Thu, 18 Feb 99 14:13:16 EST
Contents:
Re: Help with X related concepts. (Christopher Browne)
Help with samples of regular expressions syntax please (Larry Bados)
Re: Anyone lucky with STB 128 AGP 4MB card? (Mark Skouson)
Re: Linux is not even in Windows 9X's class. ("Jim Ross")
Re: 2.2.1 Kernel & Modutils --HELP! (Darrell Tangman)
Re: Can NT with NTFS coexist with RedHat Linux (Eric)
Re: Compiling kernel, get errors (Brian Newman)
Re: Linux jingle (Jason Clifford)
Web access to email needed, Re: HTML and/or Java email client for LInux??? ("Cameron
Spitzer")
Re: Linux is not even in Windows 9X's class. ("The Infernal One")
Re: X and ATI Rage IIc AGP ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: 3COM 3C905BTX Ethernet card (Mark Skouson)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Christopher Browne)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.help,comp.os.linux.questions,comp.os.linux.x
Subject: Re: Help with X related concepts.
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 00:32:27 GMT
On Wed, 17 Feb 1999 11:20:35 -0600, Greg Thorne
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> E: _REALLY_ configurable. Its main aim is to be totally configurable. It
>> can be a real memory and CPU hog because of the way it draws the window
>> decorations. But, of course, this can me reduced by playing with the
>> config. Also, since Rasterman (it's original author) now works at RHAD
>> labs, it is always going to be the most GNOME-compliant WM.
>Okay, that's kind of what I gathered so far. It sounds really cool, but
>I've heard it's kind of difficult to install and configure. I've also
>heard that some people have trouble with it crashing. I'm going to be
>running a K6-3 300 with 64M of RAM. Should I have a problem?
That should be pretty adequate for running any of thw WMs around...
>> WindowMaker: This is pretty popular. It's a nice-looking WM that can be
>> customized a fair bit, but is still pretty damn lean. I believe it's now
>> the official WM of the GNUStep project, so it looks alot like the original
>> NeXTStep. Fun things like a docking bar and dockable applets.
>The docking bar and dockable applets are useable in E also, are they not?
>Right now, I still think that Window Maker is my best choice.
WindowMaker is fairly widely liked.
>> Afterstep: Originally a hack of fvwm (2?) to look like NeXTStep. Many
>> people still use it, but it's been overtaken by WindowMaker. Has most
>> of the things that WindowMaker now has, but since it is still based on
>> FVWM, it's not as lean and efficient.
>Okay, I wasn't sure whether or not it had been overtaken.
Unfortunately, the fvwm variants suffer from a somewhat "arcane"
configuration language. Doing some things is pretty easy; doing more
complex things is somewhat more difficult.
>> <out with the asbestos suit>
>> KWM: The default WM of the KDE desktop. The KDE guys can say what they
>> like, but KDE and KWM are pretty much glued to each other. Trying to run
>> some of the core KDE stuff (like the panel and file manager) with a
>> different WM isn't very nice. And I think you still need some of the KDE
>> libs to run it, and probably some of the KDE tools to configure it. So
>> don't plan on running KWM without the rest of KDE. KDE can be a bit of a
>> memory and CPU hog. But it depends.
>Hehehe. Yah, I've noticed that there are quite a few KDE zealots out
>there. I don't know about that one. The idea of the apps being all
>glued together and built in isn't that appealing to me.
Nothing stops you from running applications that "merely" expect to have
X out there. You can run KDE, GNOME, and non-[either] apps all at the
same time. Some KDE zealots seem unusually zealous to the point that it
*appears* they want to exclude non-KDE apps from one's system, which is
rather unfortunate.
>> > 2) Is there a way to switch WM's while you're in your X session?
>> Yes, many WM's suport this. It does has to be supported by the WM though.
>Okay, so each window manager you want to switch to has to support it?
Your configuration has to support it. That may (or may not) involve WM
configuration.
If the WM is the last thing run when getting X going, then that means
that when the WM terminates, if it doesn't start up something else, then
your X session will end.
If, on the other hand, some other program "owns" the X session, then
life is (somewhat) simpler.
It is typical for WMs to have, in their menus, an option to exit. You
can normally add additional options such that when you exit, you can
start up alternative WMs. Red Hat and Debian tend to set up WMs with
this as an option.
>> > 3) What exactly is GNOME? I know it's not really a separate WM,
>> GNOME is a desktop environment. It was originally started in reaction to
>> the licence for the QT widget set used by KDE. It has since started
>> moving off in a slightly different direction to KDE. It looks like GNOME
>> might end up being more of a 'hacker' or 'power user' desktop, or at least
>> to begin with.
That doesn't answer the question.
GNOME and KDE are desktop environments, which represent a set of
libraries and applications intended to provide some common
functionality, including:
- GUI libraries so that apps can have common "look and feel"
- Configuration libraries so apps can use common ways of looking up
configuration data
- Common libraries to link out to get at help (e.g. - HTML/Manual
pages)
- Common Drag'n'Drop methods
- Common compound document models (in progress)
>> Enlightenment is the de-facto GNOME window manager, but pretty much any WM
>> can be used. WindowMaker and FVWM2 are probably the best alternatives.
>So GNOME is a set of desktop apps, and API's that the applications can
>talk to, or what?
Right.
>> > but it still will run GTK themes? How does this work?
>> I'm not sure what you mean here.
>>
>> GTK is a widget set, and dictates how the 'widgets' look. i.e buttons,
>> menus, lists, etc... The current development version of GTK has support
>> for themes, also done by Rasterman. This is totally seperate to the WM.
>Yah, I was talking about the themes on http://gtk.themes.org . Are they
>WM-independent as long as you're running GNOME, or what? I know most (if
>not all) WM's are themeable by themselves, but how does GTK themes apply
>to the WM?
GNOME themes can influence all the applications that are
GTK/GNOME-aware.
If the WM is aware of this stuff, then the GNOME themes can affect the
WM. If not, then not.
>> > 4) I know this is objective, but give me your opinions: which WM's are
>> > superior in resource usage, graphical look, and "feel"?
>> I'm using enlightenment at home on my K6-2 300 with 128M of ram. I run
>> X at 1440x1080 @32bpp (8M Millenium G200 with a nice 17" mitsubishi
>> monitor!) and have 12 desktops, with 8 different 'wallpapers' at the
>> moment. I can't remember how much it takes up, but the X server process
>> usually swells to over 70M to cache all of the wallpapers.
>So, you're running 1440x1080 on a 17" monitor? You mean you're not blind
>yet? Wow. 70M is quite a hog. I guess you have 128M, so why not.
Invisible desktops should be able to swap out without hurting
performance too much. That does seem a bit excessive, though...
>> But enough bragging...
>> I also use enlightenment here at work on a P5-100 with 32M of ram. I run X
>> at 1024x768 @16bpp (simple 2M Trio64V2), also with 12 desktops but with
>> the one wallpaper for all. The X process is around 7M.
>That's more like it.
>
>> Apart from the differences in wallpapers, both my home and work machines
>> use the same enlightenment config.
>>
>> I haven't used other WM's for a while, so I don't know about them. But as
>> you can see, Enlightenment can act quite differently. I've heard good
>> things about WindowMaker.
>>
>> > 5) I know this is trivial, but I like the "transparent window" look. Is
>> > this possible with any WM?
>>
>> This isn't up to the window manager. Actually, it could be. E has a drag
>> mode where the window becomes semi-transparent while you drag it around.
>> But it's really slow on my work machine here. The window manager could
>> perhaps do all the work to make a window translucent, but it would not be
>> pretty.
>>
>> The 'Eterm' program (an X terminal modelled after enlightenments'
>> configurability) does have the ability to be transparent.
>Is this the only terminal that allows this? I was looking at the
>AfterStep theme called "Translucency" on this page:
>http://as.themes.org/themes.shtml
Several terminal programs do this *sort* of thing; aterm (written for
Afterstep) may do similar.
This sort of "chrome" seems to me to be a waste of time/memory, but to
each their own...
>Here is the screen shot: http://as.themes.org/shots/Translunacy.jpg
>
>Is this something that the WM allowed the designer to do, or what?
No, this is the sort of thing that the *application* allows the designer
to do this. The fact that it tries to integrate (somewhat) with the
WM's "look and feel" is relatively coincidental.
--
"Although UNIX is more reliable, NT may become more reliable with time"
- Ron Redman, deputy technical director of the Fleet Introduction
Division of the Aegis Program Executive Office, US Navy.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] <http://www.hex.net/~cbbrowne/lsf.html>
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Larry Bados)
Crossposted-To: comp.unix.user-friendly
Subject: Help with samples of regular expressions syntax please
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 17:24:07 GMT
What regular expressions syntax would match:
>
> 1) Lines that contain the words "hot" and "cold"
>
> syntax= ?
>
> 2) Lines that contain the words "eat" but not "cats"
>
> syntax= ?
------------------------------
From: Mark Skouson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Anyone lucky with STB 128 AGP 4MB card?
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 18:40:59 -0600
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Rluby wrote:
> You have got to know what **chip set** the card uses. If it happens to be the
> Nvidia
> Riva 128, dl the latest Xfree86 ( 3.3.3.1)
>
> hope this helps.
I have an nvidia also. Riva 128 chipset. I used the SVGA driver.
Since my Xfree86 is version 3.3.2 or something like that I called it a STB
Velocity 128
instead. It works great at 8bpp but the screen is weird with 32 bpp and wont
work at all for
24bpp. (1600x1200 and 1280x1024)
I downloaded 3.3.3.1 and it worked a little better at (1280x1024) but still
jumped around a little
when I moved windows at 32bpp and 1600x1024
I am running 3.3.2 and 8bpp with the SVGA driver and calling it a velocity
rather than an nvidia
Mark
------------------------------
From: "Jim Ross" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.linux,alt.os.linux,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux is not even in Windows 9X's class.
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 19:35:46 -0500
The Infernal One wrote in message
<7afev1$65t$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...
>Keith G. Murphy wrote:
>>Alexander Viro wrote:
>
>>>Ever tried to add a logical disk on your master harddisk and
>>> watch the names of logical disk sitting on the slave being shifted? Or
just
>>> add a second harddisk when your first one has two partitions. D:
becoming
>>> E:, anyone?
>
>>Then, if you also have Win95, try to fix all the broken registry
>>entries, ini lines, and shortcuts that that breaks. Aaaaggghhh!!!
>>Truly, the worst thing in the DOS/Win world. Even ahead of (no) library
>>versioning.
>
>An objective measure of ease of use is extremely hard to find
>and agree upon. I personally don't think Linux is much harder
>to use than Windows although for me personally, Windows is a
>lot easier because I used Linux for only a short amount of
>time with limited amount of documentation available to me.
>From any computer user's point of view, the problem is not
>whether a particular system is inherently easy to use, but
>whether it would be easy to learn to use. This takes a lot of
>other variables into consideration, for example, the amount of
>documentation available and its target, potential support from
>other users, etc, etc. Linux is in a very disadvantaged
>situation in this regard, for most Linux documentation I've
>seen are targeted for advanced users, and it's hard to count on
>other people helping you since there are not that many Linux
>users in the first place. Add that to the customizability and
>all these different versions of Linux, which makes Linux at
>"apparently" hard to use...
>
How about if we say Linux is on par with Windows on ease of use but harder
to learn?
I say the first part because if GUI was so easy why are there so many
wizards to do tasks?
I say the second part because first GUI stuff explains things on dialogs and
choices are clearly shown. Also Linux/Unix doesn't some differently than
Windows (eg drive letters) and this must be unlearned first. Since 90% of
users do use some form of Windows this is true of almost everyone. Having
things different is unpleasant, regardless of what is "better".
Jim
------------------------------
From: Darrell Tangman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: 2.2.1 Kernel & Modutils --HELP!
Date: 18 Feb 1999 17:26:59 GMT
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Getting the following errors trying to compile the new modutils for a 2.2.1
> kernel, can someone help?
> make[1]: Entering directory `/usr/src/modutils-2.1.23/kerneld'
> gcc -g -O -Wall -I../include -D_GNU_SOURCE -DDEBUG -DNO_GDBM -c -o kerneld.o
> kerneld.c
> kerneld.c:2: linux/kerneld.h: No such file or directory
You need the newer version of modutils (2.1.121). Kerneld went away
some time around 2.1.121, so you'll have a hard time building a version
of modutils that requires its header file(s).
--
Darrell Tangman -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Augusta, Georgia, USA
------------------------------
From: Eric <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.linux,comp.os.linux.admin,comp.os.linux.networking,comp.os.linux.questions
Subject: Re: Can NT with NTFS coexist with RedHat Linux
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 16:03:50 -0700
Tat M. Leung wrote:
> I have a computer currently running NT server using NTFS. I like to add a
> second harddisk to the computer and install RedHat Linux on this drive. The
> second harddisk will be used for Linux exclusively. I understand that if NT
> is using FAT, there would not be any problem. Since my system is using
> NTFS, can I install RedHat Linux on this system?
>
> Thank you for any advise.
>
> Tat
For starters, you should not be running a pure NTFS install. This is an
absolute recipe for disaster. It is virtually impossible to recover (it can be
done but it really sucks) a NTFS system if you are booting from a NTFS
partition and it becomes corrupt. For safety you should have a small dos
partition (<50 mb's is fine), then create a NTFS partition on the rest of the
drive. In my case I have 2 drives, the first drive has dos and linux, the
second is NTFS. I have the NT loader files installed in the dos partition on
the first drive, and NT installed on the second. As far as the rest of your
question, install Linux as normal, set Lilo up to dual boot dos and Linux.
since the NT loader files are in the dos partition, as soon as you choose dos
you will get the NT dual boot menu and you can choose dos or NT. This is
extremely stable, easy to recover if you have problems, and is a hell of a lot
more stable than 3rd party crap like partition magic.
Eric
------------------------------
From: Brian Newman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Compiling kernel, get errors
Date: 18 Feb 1999 08:32:17 -0800
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, David says...
>
>What is the image name in /etc/lilo.conf? Is the name you used
>the same?
>The one in lilo.conf is probably named differently than vmlinuz.
image = /vmlinuz
root = /dev/hda6
label = linux
image = /vmlinuz.old
root = /dev/hda6
label = old
====================
Shade and sweet water,
Brian -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://www.aracnet.com/~bnewman
VW info at http://www.newsguy.com/~bnewman/vw
------------------------------
From: Jason Clifford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: aus.computers.linux,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux jingle
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 18:07:49 +0000
On Fri, 19 Feb 1999, Brian wrote:
> On the first day of Linux my puter said to me
> Piss off you bloody great twit
I suspect that your computer is running some new package that determines
the users mental capacity and responds accordingly.
I will repeat what you, apparently, were told on day one:
PISS OFF YOU BLOODY GREAT TWIT!
Jason Clifford
Definite Linux Systems
http://definite.ukpost.com/
------------------------------
From: "Cameron Spitzer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.networking
Subject: Web access to email needed, Re: HTML and/or Java email client for LInux???
Date: 18 Feb 1999 18:25:08 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Brett W. McCoy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>On 18 Feb 1999 05:49:40 GMT, Cyrus Mehta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>Hi, is there some sort of email client that I can use in a web browser?
>>I know its not ideal, but I am looking for a VERY lightweight client.
>>
>>Basically I want to see something kinda like HotMail.
>
>How is running a bloated browser lightweight compared to running elm or
>mutt?
I'm looking for the same application. Some of my users travel a lot,
and need to access their mail from coin-op Web browsers at airports,
shopping malls, friends' houses, public libraries, the lobby at 3Com
corporate headquarters, and Kinkos stores. Public Web access facilities
often do not include telnet or a mail client, or it can't be reconfigured
to make them work. HTTP (and HTTPS) is sometimes the only thing that works.
And I haven't been able to compile IMAP-4.5.BETA yet.
make slx EXTRALDFLAGS="-llibcrypt"
dies with
osdep.c: In function `checkpw':
osdep.c:190: `PAM_ESTABLISH_CRED' undeclared (first use this function)
It seems the names in /usr/lib/libpam.a don't match; adding -llibpam
does not help. Any suggestions?
Cameron
------------------------------
From: "The Infernal One" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.linux,alt.os.linux,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux is not even in Windows 9X's class.
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 14:15:47 -0800
Keith G. Murphy wrote:
>Alexander Viro wrote:
>>Ever tried to add a logical disk on your master harddisk and
>> watch the names of logical disk sitting on the slave being shifted? Or just
>> add a second harddisk when your first one has two partitions. D: becoming
>> E:, anyone?
>Then, if you also have Win95, try to fix all the broken registry
>entries, ini lines, and shortcuts that that breaks. Aaaaggghhh!!!
>Truly, the worst thing in the DOS/Win world. Even ahead of (no) library
>versioning.
An objective measure of ease of use is extremely hard to find
and agree upon. I personally don't think Linux is much harder
to use than Windows although for me personally, Windows is a
lot easier because I used Linux for only a short amount of
time with limited amount of documentation available to me.
>From any computer user's point of view, the problem is not
whether a particular system is inherently easy to use, but
whether it would be easy to learn to use. This takes a lot of
other variables into consideration, for example, the amount of
documentation available and its target, potential support from
other users, etc, etc. Linux is in a very disadvantaged
situation in this regard, for most Linux documentation I've
seen are targeted for advanced users, and it's hard to count on
other people helping you since there are not that many Linux
users in the first place. Add that to the customizability and
all these different versions of Linux, which makes Linux at
"apparently" hard to use...
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.help,comp.os.linux.x
Subject: Re: X and ATI Rage IIc AGP
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 23:58:26 GMT
I have the same card as you do but PCI. I solved the problem by downloading
the RPM's for the new version of XFree86 3.3.3-1 from Redhat's site or their
mirrors. Also download the Mach64 server RPM also. I went ahead and got the
XFree86_Setup rpm and that eased the installation of it much better. That
should work.
> If none of all other answers works, try adding a parameter 'ChipId
> 0x4755' in the XF86config file. This file is generally sitting in
> /etc/X11. This paramter should go in the 'Device' parapgraph defining
> your video card. This works good for me (Rage IIc AGP + X11 3.3.2). This
> paramter will prevent X to probe the card when starting, but it works
> just fine.
>
> Hope this helps
> Didier
>
> Calle Hilborn a �crit :
> >
> > This video card does not appear in the list when configuring X. And when
> > probing for card specifics it returns an error!
> > Can someone please help me?
> > I installed Linux and used it for the first time this tuesday, so, please be
> > rather specific when describing HOWTO.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Calle
> >
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
============= Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ============
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
------------------------------
From: Mark Skouson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: 3COM 3C905BTX Ethernet card
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 18:50:20 -0600
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Matt Kressel wrote:
> Kerry J. Cox wrote:
> >
> > Howdy all,
> > I've been wanting to recompile my kernel for some time now. I'm using
> > the standard RedHat 5.2 kernel and would like to try out the latest and
> > greatest 2.2.1 kernel. I usually compile my own kernels from source on
> > my machine at home, but here at work I have this rather new ethernet
> > card, the 3COM 3C905BTX and since my connection to the Internet is
> > integral to my job, I have been hesitant to try out a new kernel for
> > fear of breaking something. It works fine now, but has anyone had any
> > problems with this card. I'm just being wary since my system here at
> > work is so mission critical and I don't put anything on it unless I have
> > tried and tested it elsewhere. I've been burnt before.
> > Thanks.
> > KJ
> >
>
> Why not try making a module for your kernel and testing it first, then
> if it is OK, build it into the kernel? I think most drivers for the
> 2.2.x series have been "back" ported to 2.0.x
>
> -Matt
>
> --
> Matthew O. Kressel | INTERNET: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> +--------- Northrop Grumman Corporation, Bethpage, NY ---------+
> +--------- TEL: (516) 346-9101 FAX: (516) 346-9740 ------------+
I just downloaded the new 2.2.1 kernel and I have a 3COM 905 also. I
compiled it in with the new
kernel and it works. It has been working for about 30 hours now...no
problems. :)
Mark
------------------------------
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End of Linux-Misc Digest
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