Linux-Misc Digest #202, Volume #21 Thu, 29 Jul 99 01:13:08 EDT
Contents:
Re: math.h problem (Joe Wright)
Re: windows dll vs. linux libraries (mlw)
Re: math.h problem (Alan Curry)
Re: downloading linux (Christopher B. Browne)
Re: windows dll vs. linux libraries (Kaz Kylheku)
Re: Linux friendly ISPs - DSL providers? (Rod Smith)
Re: Unresolved symbols in module... ("Alex Abreu")
What other file systems for Linux work well? (Randall Parker)
can't run x11amp as a user, can as root ("William B. Cattell")
Re: windows dll vs. linux libraries (Randall Parker)
Interesting PPP Problem!! ("Wajdi H. Al-Jedaibi")
Re: Linux only use 1% of my CPU??? ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: can't run x11amp as a user, can as root (Gergo Barany)
Re: Linux has finally crashed (Randall Parker)
Re: USB Mouse Suport (Coy A Hile)
Re: Unresolved symbols in module... (Rado Faletic)
Re: Linux has finally crashed (Paul D. Smith)
Re: linux backup facility? (Postmaster)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Joe Wright <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.lang.c,gnu.gcc.help
Subject: Re: math.h problem
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 22:13:01 -0400
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please pardon me for the massive snip.
Steve Summit is clearly right on this one. Linkers are clever enough
not to 'include' libraries en masse. If I have a program which does not
use libm.a and link it, nonetheless with the -lm switch, no extra code
is added to my executable simply because of -lm.
It would seem that libc.a has everything but the kitchen sink in it,
stdio, stdlib, string, ctype, etc., except math. Why not math?
At a wild guess, back in the Old Days, typical system resources were at
a bare minimum, libc.a was much smaller than it is now and libm.a was a
relatively large file and might not even be a part of some
implementations. You could do a lot of hard work (in the Old Days)
writing kernel, device and utility stuff without ever taking sqrt() of
anything. libm.a was an option, not a necessity. C and Unix were
developed more or less concurrently on a PDP-11. I don't know how much
memory the machine had or the size of its disk resources. Small.
But it is now Today. All of us have on our modest machines, multiples
of the 'raw power' of the PDP-11 and considerations of 'conservation of
valuable resources' is different than it was 25 years ago.
So, libc.a and libm.a should merged to the extent that -lm is no longer
necessary on the cc command line. We might allow it so as not to break
old script, but it Should Be No Longer Required!
--
Joe Wright mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler."
--- Albert Einstein ---
------------------------------
From: mlw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.development.apps
Subject: Re: windows dll vs. linux libraries
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 03:07:40 +0000
Todd Knarr wrote:
>
> In comp.os.linux.misc mlw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > You account of the weakness in Linux shared libraries are exacty why
> > they are bad for binary distribution of software.
>
> Why would the ability to distribute a piece of software that can have
> all it's neccesary components installed without risking overwriting
> other versions of those components be a weakness?
>
> > I completely disagree with you. Windows .DLL are only bad because they
> > have not been versioned in the past. Today .DLL files like MSVC40 and
> > MSVC42 can easily co-exist. In fact, a .DLL file that uses a MSVC40
> > routine fubar() can be used with a MSVC50 application that also uses a
> > fubar() routine, each function will use the correct fubar() routine.
>
> OK, what happens when I create a DirectSound object using DirectX 2.0
> routines and pass it to a routine in a DLL that uses DirectX 6.1 routines?
I would prefer to not discuss Microsoft API, they are almost always
poorly implemented. A bad implementation is not an example of a bad
technology. Besides the DirectX crap is more than a .DLL it an OS
extension that calls directly into the device drivers and presents an
operating system interface.
But lets talk about the creation of an object in one version and passing
it to a previous version. This is of course bad news and a good way to
design a system. Like I said, a bad implementation is not a sign of a
bad technology.
Also, I have not said the shared library paradigm that Linux has is bad,
I simply said it is not a good model for distributing binary objects to
a heterogenius installed base.
I have called many times for the concept of a shared module in addition
to shared libraries. Just think about being able to distribute a .so
file that can be used on any version of Linux, by any application no
mater what c library it is linked to.
--
Mohawk Software
Windows 95, Windows NT, UNIX, Linux. Applications, drivers, support.
Visit http://www.mohawksoft.com
------------------------------
Crossposted-To: comp.lang.c,gnu.gcc.help
Subject: Re: math.h problem
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Alan Curry)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 03:19:17 GMT
In article <q3Mn3.319$li7.9116@client>,
Dann Corbit <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>There are probably 20 or 30 functions that you never call and yet they live
>there quite happily in libc.a. Your code is no fatter because of them.
>Only objects that are needed are linked into the executable.
I didn't say anything about code size, did I?
I just said that there is no reason to incorporate the <math.h> functions
into -lc, at least no reason that does not apply equally well to many other
libraries. The Standard C Library is but one of many useful subsets of the
total functionality of all C libraries. Basically just an arbitrary set of
functions. You shouldn't expect this arbitrary set of functions to be
physically represented by a single library object file, when there are better
criteria for putting things in the same library, like they are maintained by
the same person, or they actually have any functionality in common with each
other (libc and libm don't).
But it seems that everybody expects me to make a point about the problems of
a huge libc. So I will. If I fix a bug in syslog(), I have to relink (not to
mention recompile, if I don't happen to already have the .o's lying around)
all of glibc. That sucks. If glibc was broken down into several independent
libraries, changes to it would not be so damn hard.
I have a machine where I might like to compile glibc 2.1, but I can't because
there isn't even enough disk space to untar it.
>It's got to be the geek syndrome. Let's separate every function into its
>own library and do a -lstrlen if we want strlen() or -lsqrt if we want
>sqrt(). That way, we can have thousands of command line switches.
Read the end of my previous post, where I detailed an idea (not mine
originally) that would eliminate the need to use any -l options at all.
--
Alan Curry |Declaration of | _../\. ./\.._ ____. ____.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]|bigotries (should| [ | | ] / _> / _>
==============+save some time): | \__/ \__/ \___: \___:
Linux,vim,trn,GPL,zsh,qmail,^H | "Screw you guys, I'm going home" -- Cartman
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Christopher B. Browne)
Subject: Re: downloading linux
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 03:29:04 GMT
On 29 Jul 1999 01:50:23 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
posted:
>John O'Day wrote:
>>
>> I am very new to linux and I went to the red hat ftp site. I don't which
>> files to download at the site. Can someone point me in the right direction.
>
>I suggest you buy a real distribution first time around. You will get
>a book if you buy RedHat. I have used that book alot.
>
>If you are willing to go it on your own you can get many distributions
>very inexpensively from:
> http://cart.cheapbytes.com/cgi-bin/cart
The "cheap but careful" approach is to get a "$1.99" distribution, but
add to this one or more *good* Linux references. I would give
"Running Linux" high marks in this regard; there are others...
--
"What a depressingly stupid machine." -- Marvin
[EMAIL PROTECTED] <http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/lsf.html>
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Kaz Kylheku)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.development.apps
Subject: Re: windows dll vs. linux libraries
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 03:33:48 GMT
On Thu, 29 Jul 1999 03:07:40 +0000, mlw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>I have called many times for the concept of a shared module in addition
>to shared libraries. Just think about being able to distribute a .so
>file that can be used on any version of Linux, by any application no
>mater what c library it is linked to.
As much as I hate it, COM solves the versioning problem quite effectively. You
assign a 128 bit identifier to every object, and applications request it by
specifying that identifier, and another 128 bit identifier that uniquely
identifies an interface. (To muddy the waters, the idiots call the former
identifier the ``class ID'', whereas the second is called the ``interface
ID''). Roughly, the class ID specifies concretely the product that you want to
speak to: server, or specific library or what have you. The interface ID
specifies what protocol you want to speak to it with. That protocol may be
implemented by more than one object, and one object can implement many
protocols. The protocol represented by an interface ID never changes. If you
want to change the interface, you instead add a new one to the object, and
assign a new interface ID (while continuing to support the old one).
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Rod Smith)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.networking
Subject: Re: Linux friendly ISPs - DSL providers?
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 03:42:28 GMT
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[Posted and mailed]
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Vincent) writes:
> How about ADSL providers? I'm looking at BellAtlantic and Flashcom in
> Morristown, New Jersey area. Any experieces/comments to share. Thanks.
AFAIK, both Bell Atlantic and Flashcom are quite willing to let you hook
up Linux boxes, but also AFAIK, neither provides any sort of explicit
Linux support. I should have Bell Atlantic ADSL in a couple of weeks
(I'm in the Boston area, though, and I get the impression that BA's got
at least two technologies in different regions, so my experience might or
might not bear any resemblance to yours). Their user guide booklet is
definitely oriented towards Windows, with a bit of Mac information tossed
in. From what I read on the DSL newsgroups, there shouldn't be any
problem connecting Linux to most DSL providers, excepting those that use
internal DSL "modems," for which no Linux drivers yet exist, AFAIK.
That said, the DSL newsgroups are filled with horror stories about
Flashcom (and some postings of good experiences, of course, but the
proportion is disheartening). I suggest you check the original posts
(both good and bad) before making a decision.
Flashcom is just an ISP, BTW; the wiring is done by your local phone
company and a company called Covad. Other ISPs also provide service
through Covad, so there's a good chance that you've got a choice of other
ISPs through them. One of these, from which I nearly got service, is
called Speakeasy (http://www.speakeasy.net). Apparently they run much of
their service on Red Hat Linux boxes, so I'm sure they've got Linux
expertise in-house. I don't know about their customer support policy for
Linux, though. I also can't say if they actually provide service in your
area.
--
Rod Smith
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.channel1.com/users/rodsmith
NOTE: Remove the "uce" word from my address to mail me
Author of _Special Edition Using WordPerfect for Linux_, from Que
------------------------------
From: "Alex Abreu" <simonet@(spam? no thanx)bhnet.com.br>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.development.system,comp.os.linux.setup,linux.redhat.misc
Subject: Re: Unresolved symbols in module...
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 00:09:30 -0500
>did you rerun lilo after the build, but before the reboot? You will need
>to modify /etc/lilo.conf, if you haven't already done so, to point to
>the new kernel, and then type `lilo' at the prompt.
Yes, I did everything by the book. /boot/vmlinuz is a symlink to the new
kernel zImage and is also referenced in /etc/lilo.conf
Just another related question:
What other files to I have to copy to /boot? DO I have to move the new
System.map to /boot ? Any other files other than vmlinuz ?
Thanks.
Alex
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Randall Parker)
Subject: What other file systems for Linux work well?
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 20:52:42 -0700
If one wasn't going to use ext2 for Linux what other alternatives work
well?
Or if one was going to use ext2 for Linux itself but one wanted to put
crucial data (eg a database and database transaction logs) on a different
partition running a different file system is this possible?
Does Linux have high quality FAT32, HPFS, or NTFS drivers?
Does anyone here run Linux using other file system types and do serious
production work writing to one of these other file system types?
------------------------------
From: "William B. Cattell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: can't run x11amp as a user, can as root
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 03:15:54 GMT
I've seen this issue addressed a bunch of times and now that
it's hitting me I can't find the answer (yes, I searched
DejaNews). When I log in as myself I cannot execute
/usr/bin/X11/x11amp. If I su to root I can but
unfortunatley I'm having a brain freeze and can't find the
answer. "Help!" (he typed sheepishly).
Bill
--
==============================================================
http://members.home.com/wcattell
==============================================================
Park not thy Harley in the darkness of thine garage, that it
may collect dust for want of being oft ridden. Ride thy
Harley
with thy brethren, and rejoice in the spirit of the road.
==============================================================
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Randall Parker)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.development.apps
Subject: Re: windows dll vs. linux libraries
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 20:55:15 -0700
In article <MPG.120764b381a08c089896fc@news-server>,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] says...
> The Windows "DLL Hell" problem is not a fault of the
> technology, but a problem with how many companies have
> used them.
I think its actually worse than this. Most of my Win DLL Hell has come
from various Microsoft app installs revving dlls that broke other
Microsoft apps. I mean, these people are causing enough problems
themselves without the various other ISVs getting involved.
I just got a call this week early one morning (unfortunately they are on
the East Coast and I'm on the West) from some customer due to MSVC RTL
revs messing things up with apps. Luckily the problem caused Word to
malfunction so I was able to prove it wasn't just my app that was messed
up.
>Linux's "shared misery" problems, like all
> the recent problems with StarOffice and glibc, are a
> similar situation.
Yes, it happens in Linux too unfortunately.
------------------------------
From: "Wajdi H. Al-Jedaibi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.networking,comp.os.linux.setup
Subject: Interesting PPP Problem!!
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 23:53:32 -0400
I am running RedHat 6.0 on my workstation and Redhat 5.2 on my laptop,
for some reason I am unable to establish ppp connection from my
workstation, although I am using exactly the same chatscript I connect
with from my laptop. Here are the files that I copied to from laptop to
the workstation:
/etc/resolv.conf
/etc/hosts
/etc/ppp/chatscript
/etc/ppp/options
/etc/ppp/pap-secrets
when debugging pppd, I get the following:
....expect CONNECT
....^M
....alarm
.....connection failed
Changing the time-out for chat with -t option did not work also!!
Any ideas??
Wajdi.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.setup
Subject: Re: Linux only use 1% of my CPU???
Date: 23 Jul 1999 08:18:47 GMT
Gary Hallock <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> [...] I have heard of cases where Linux will not see all memory by
> default. There is a way to tell it how much memory you have but I don't
> recall how you do it.
Add something like `append="mem=128M"' to /etc/lilo.conf and run lilo. Have
a look at the BootPrompt-HOWTO for further info.
Peter
--
Peter Gritsch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
`... so I'd rather you didn't try any last-minute stuff.'
I *AM* LAST-MINUTE STUFF, said Death, standing up.
[Terry Pratchett, Hogfather]
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Gergo Barany)
Subject: Re: can't run x11amp as a user, can as root
Date: 29 Jul 1999 04:02:01 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, William B. Cattell wrote:
>I've seen this issue addressed a bunch of times and now that
>it's hitting me I can't find the answer (yes, I searched
>DejaNews). When I log in as myself I cannot execute
>/usr/bin/X11/x11amp. If I su to root I can but
>unfortunatley I'm having a brain freeze and can't find the
>answer. "Help!" (he typed sheepishly).
Look at the permissions (ls -l). Then change them with chmod if
necessary.
Gergo
--
Every young man should have a hobby: learning how to handle money is
the best one.
-- Jack Hurley
GU d- s:+ a--- C++>$ UL+++ P>++ L+++ E>++ W+ N++ o? K- w--- !O !M !V
PS+ PE+ Y+ PGP+ t* 5+ X- R>+ tv++ b+>+++ DI+ D+ G>++ e* h! !r !y+
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Randall Parker)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.x,comp.os.linux.development.apps
Subject: Re: Linux has finally crashed
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 20:52:40 -0700
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
says...
> Well, your "UNEXPECTED INCONSISTENCY; RUN fsck MANUALLY" message
> is a direct result of your hitting the reset button. Linux didn't
> get the chance to ensure that it's disk buffers were flushed (a controlled
> shutdown does this), so some critical data wasn't written to the disk when
> you rebooted.
Since this can happen due to so many reasons (power outage, power supply
failure, accidentally bumping the reset button, an OS crash, etc) is
there any way to avoid this?
I gotta tell you, there are non-Unix operating systems that can have
power removed from them without warning that will _rarely_ corrupt the
file system as a result.
Can one run a different file system with Linux on some disk volumes that
would be less susceptible to this sort of thing? I'd like to be assured
that, say, a database or its transaction log would always survive an OS
crash.
>From what I've read here and elsewhere Linux and Unix are far more
susceptible to irreparable disk corruption on OS crash than OS/2, NT,
Win9x, MacOS, and other OSs.
Is there some way to avoid this? I know a guy who runs the computers at
an ISP. Recently (about a month ago) a defective UPS didn't protect 4
Linux computers (all with the latest patches) during a power outage. None
of them rebooted when power came back on. 3 had to be restored from tape.
That is a terrible record.
My experience with OS/2 is that it would run CHKDSK on the reboot and
then boot up just fine. I never had the need to boot from a floppy in
order to run some utility from the floppy. Most of the disk partitions
would be repairable during regular reboot.
>This in turn left the filesystem in an inconsistant state,
> where some information on it indicates that data exists, but other info
> indicates that data doesn't exist. Follow the instructions given on the screen;
> login in single user mode, run fsck on the drive, and repair the inconsistancies.
>
I don't want to install Linux at some site and then get a call to drive
100 miles in the middle of the night because it couldn't reboot after a
power outage. Any way to decrease the likelihood of having to do this
sort of thing after a crash and reboot?
> As to your original problem (linux freezing), we'll need more information in order
> to determine the cause and cure.
>
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Coy A Hile)
Subject: Re: USB Mouse Suport
Date: 29 Jul 1999 00:35:36 -0400
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Ian Shrimpton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Hi,
>
>Is there any chance of getting a USB Micro$oft wheely mouse working with
>Linux? I'm not so bothered about the wheel :)
>
>Cheers
>
Kernel versions 2.3.x (the current *UNSTABLE* development kernels are working
to develop USB support, so Linus says, so you may want to try one of them.
I think that 2.3.12 is out now. If you need support for VFAT, though, it is
currently broken, so you may not want to try these kernels. I believe
some other modules may be broken as well, though I do not remeber which.
HTH
Coy
--
Coy Hile
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
"Theirs not to reason why; theirs but to do...."
Tennyson, "Charge of the Light Brigade"
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 14:30:42 +1000
From: Rado Faletic <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.development.system,comp.os.linux.setup,linux.redhat.misc
Subject: Re: Unresolved symbols in module...
> What other files to I have to copy to /boot? DO I have to move the new
> System.map to /boot ? Any other files other than vmlinuz ?
you don't have to, but you can do it. There's nothing else.
strange. I'm afraid someone else is going to have to try and help.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Paul D. Smith)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.x,comp.os.linux.development.apps
Subject: Re: Linux has finally crashed
Date: 29 Jul 1999 00:19:32 -0400
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
%% [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Randall Parker) writes:
rp> I gotta tell you, there are non-Unix operating systems that can
rp> have power removed from them without warning that will _rarely_
rp> corrupt the file system as a result.
First, please don't treat this as a UNIX vs. non-UNIX issue. There are
about as many different filesystem implementations as there are UNIX
variants. Some are safer, some are less safe. Often it's a
speed/safety tradeoff issue.
FWIW, I've had my kids flick off my Linux box on numerous occassions and
had the power go out, etc., and I've never had to manually fsck the
disk. So it's not an "every time" thing. Much of it depends on what's
going on on the system when it goes.
rp> Is there some way to avoid this? I know a guy who runs the
rp> computers at an ISP. Recently (about a month ago) a defective UPS
rp> didn't protect 4 Linux computers (all with the latest patches)
rp> during a power outage. None of them rebooted when power came back
rp> on. 3 had to be restored from tape. That is a terrible record.
Last I heard work is being done on a journaling filesystem for Linux;
these are very reliable. AIX and, I think, HP-UX already have them.
You might ask around and see what's going on in this area.
In general I suppose it might also be helpful to partition your system
correctly. Try to keep the / and /usr filesystems as static as
possible: don't have temp files written there, etc. Make /var a
separate filesystem, and /tmp of course. This decreases the likelihood
that there will be unflushed buffers on / and /usr so at least the
system could come up.
Note I'm not filesystem expert, but it _sounds_ reasonable :).
--
===============================================================================
Paul D. Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Network Management Development
"Please remain calm...I may be mad, but I am a professional." --Mad Scientist
===============================================================================
These are my opinions---Nortel Networks takes no responsibility for them.
------------------------------
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.setup,redhat.general
From: postmaster@*remove*rscubed.com (Postmaster)
Subject: Re: linux backup facility?
Reply-To: postmaster@*remove*rscubed.com
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 03:41:37 GMT
try 'taper' it comes with RH 6.0....
In article <7nmt6m$5f7$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
David Freeman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I recently had to re-install linux (redhat 6.0) on a blank disk.
>
> My original plan had been to generate a tape backup of the entire disk
>
> starting at / using tar, install linux from the cd distribution,
>
> and then untar the tape to recreate my configuration. This
>
> attempt failed. Tar stopped at the tape device in the /dev directory,
>
> and when I attempted to untar the tape ignoring the /dev
>
> directory, the restore left me with an unbootable system (even
>
> lilo stopped working). Clearly my backup strategy was not useful.
>
>
>
> On other unix systems (like SGI, IBM etc.) there is usually a
>
> backup and restore script. When restoring from such a script,
>
> a minimal system is read into the machine either from a floppy
>
> or a cd. The minimal system includes the restore script, which
>
> is able to reconstruct the disk to its situation at the time of
>
> the last backup. Windows also has such facilities. My question
>
> is: does such a backup/restore facility exist for linux?
>
> ------------------ Posted via SearchLinux ------------------
> http://www.searchlinux.com
Washington State Resident who doesn't want any #$^&!@ SPAM.
------------------------------
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End of Linux-Misc Digest
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