Being "at fault" is a misleading term here. It's a bad interaction between hotmail and mailman3, that's for sure but it doesn't make mailman3 problematic here. I'm not saying it didn't start with the mailman3 upgrade but it doesn't make mm3 the party that needs fixing.
A little bit of technical explanation. Hope that helps. mm2 used to send a completely different set of headers with the email. For example, These are headers of two different emails from the same mailing list in mm2 and mm3: mm2: To: [email protected] X-BeenThere: [email protected] X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2625870431424236464==" Subject: [Cloud] [Cloud-announce] New Wikireplicas available, timeline update, and Quarry migration X-BeenThere: [email protected] List-Id: Wikimedia Cloud Services general discussion and support <cloud.lists.wikimedia.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/options/cloud>, <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/cloud/> List-Post: <mailto:[email protected]> List-Help: <mailto:[email protected]?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/cloud>, <mailto:[email protected]?subject=subscribe> mm3: To: [email protected] X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.80.0.2.43) X-MailFrom: [email protected] X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-cloud-announce.lists.wikimedia.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.3 Precedence: list Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8712432623581038340==" Message-ID-Hash: JURBYMBXANC3LR6AWNCO26AB6CZH3Y7E X-Message-ID-Hash: JURBYMBXANC3LR6AWNCO26AB6CZH3Y7E X-MailFrom: [email protected] X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-cloud.lists.wikimedia.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header Reply-To: [email protected] Subject: [Cloud] [Cloud-announce] Mounts for Scratch NFS changing a bit tomorrow (2021-05-27 around 20:00 UTC) List-Id: Wikimedia Cloud Services general discussion and support <cloud.lists.wikimedia.org> Archived-At: <https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/[email protected]/message/JURBYMBXANC3LR6AWNCO26AB6CZH3Y7E/> List-Archive: <https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/[email protected]/> List-Help: <mailto:[email protected]?subject=help> List-Owner: <mailto:[email protected]> List-Post: <mailto:[email protected]> List-Subscribe: <mailto:[email protected]> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:[email protected]> It can be that hotmail needs X-BeenThere header which is removed (because it's deprecated in 2007: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailman3_Migration#Email_filters) or the extra headers trigger the hotmail's spam detection. I'm clearly speculating here as I have no knowledge of the internals of hotmail and can't help you in that part but these headers doesn't make mm3 problematic. On Sat, Jun 5, 2021 at 11:19 PM Trijnstel wp <[email protected]> wrote: > I agree with Leon. Like I said: this didn't happen before the upgrade, so > perhaps the upgrade is the problem? And an email from the WMF to Hotmail > would indeed be more convincing... problem is that the CU-l emails do not > end up in my Junk email so nothing to do from my part. > > In any case, I disabled bounce processing for CU-l for now. > > Trijnstel > ------------------------------ > *Van:* Leon Haanstra <[email protected]> > *Verzonden:* zaterdag 5 juni 2021 23:07 > *Aan:* List for discussions related to list admins on lists.wikimedia.org > <[email protected]> > *Onderwerp:* [List admins] Re: Subscription disabled due to a bounce > score? > > It would be more convincing if such a request would come from someone > affiliated with the WMF, someone with authority, instead of a random nobody > like myself who represents nobody but their self. Also, the theory that > hotmail is the problem and that contacting them could resolve anything > needs further explaining/better arguments. > > Regads, > > Natuur12 > > On Saturday, June 5, 2021, 10:58:27 PM GMT+2, Amir Sarabadani < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > It seems the checkuser-owner is being targeted by spammers. For now you > can disable bounce processing > https://lists.wikimedia.org/postorius/lists/checkuser-l.lists.wikimedia.org/settings/bounce_processing > > From the look of the issue, it seems hotmail has a strict policy for spam > and/or it needs updating for mm3, maybe contact hotmail support for this > and explain that it's wikimedia and we just upgraded our mailman version > and they need to adapt their filters? Google has a button on spam emails > you can click to say "it's not spam" and it helps improve their spam > detection models. Maybe hotmail has something similar. If so, please use > that. > > HTH > > On Sat, Jun 5, 2021 at 8:16 PM Trijnstel wp <[email protected]> wrote: > > PS. Note that since the upgrade more emails from the various mailing lists > were put by Hotmail in the Junk mail... That never happened before. > > Trijnstel > ------------------------------ > *Van:* Trijnstel wp <[email protected]> > *Verzonden:* zaterdag 5 juni 2021 20:04 > *Aan:* Federico Leva (Nemo) <[email protected]>; List for discussions > related to list admins on lists.wikimedia.org < > [email protected]> > *Onderwerp:* [List admins] Re: Subscription disabled due to a bounce > score? > > It's a weird situation. Like I told Kunal: I've never had problems before, > only after the upgrade and only for checkuser-l. > > I was afk for a few days, and only now I noticed my email got disabled > again on 1 June. So I missed quite a few emails. As checkuser-l isn't > archived I can't read them back (only when someone emails me the missing > emails...). I think we should do something about this on our part. I don't > think the problem is my email. Perhaps Hotmail as a whole? > > Trijnstel > ------------------------------ > *Van:* Federico Leva (Nemo) <[email protected]> > *Verzonden:* dinsdag 1 juni 2021 17:32 > *Aan:* List for discussions related to list admins on lists.wikimedia.org > <[email protected]>; Trijnstel wp <[email protected]> > *Onderwerp:* Re: [List admins] Subscription disabled due to a bounce > score? > > I was just notified of 25 unsubscriptions from the Wikidata mailing list > (and 2 on WikiIT-l). They were probably all "real" bounces, and mostly > they were former WMF or WMDE staffers whose mailbox was presumably > disabled, but I saw some addresses that I know for sure are working. > > Google, Microsoft and others are known to lie about mail delivery. It's > possible that by sending an unusual amount (or rate) of email to some > non-existing addresses we got somehow treated like spammers, and some > messages to existing mailboxes were treated as the kind of spam that is > bad enough to bounce back with a lie but not bad enough to be silently > discarded. I have no idea how to debug this for Google or Microsoft > mailservers but I've suggested one user whose email is on a personal > domain name to file a bug with any logs they might have. I hope that's > fine. > > Federico > _______________________________________________ > Listadmins mailing list -- [email protected] > To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] > > To request technical changes for a specific list, please instead create a > task in Phabricator. See https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > > > > -- > Amir (he/him) > > _______________________________________________ > Listadmins mailing list -- [email protected] > To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] > > To request technical changes for a specific list, please instead create a > task in Phabricator. See https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists > _______________________________________________ > Listadmins mailing list -- [email protected] > To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] > > To request technical changes for a specific list, please instead create a > task in Phabricator. See https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists -- Amir (he/him)
_______________________________________________ Listadmins mailing list -- [email protected] To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] To request technical changes for a specific list, please instead create a task in Phabricator. See https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists
