Ahoy CT and all,
I'm confused.
I was of the understanding that the police were paid from tax money. There is
no personal income tax in Florida, the major sources of government revenue here
are sales tax and property tax.
If I am mistaken about this please let me know.
Your belief that I implied the money I spoke of was illicit illustrates your
viewpoint, not mine.
I would also like to hear more about the "risk" water cops are subject to over
and above the normal water borne risks we all have to deal with. I can't
recall any such reported on the news. Pirates aside, boat people generally
seem to be a gentle sort of folk.
As for "verbal attacks".
Like most of my email on the List, I describe the facts as I have experienced
them concerning many aspects of the livaboard life for the benefit of those who
follow in my wake, whether it's the care of batteries, the benefits of the DC
buss, or dealing with man-made hazards.
The original writer of this thread was contemplating living aboard and I was
describing some of the hazardous conditions he would be facing.
Most livaboard persecution consists of two types of attacks. One simply
because we are living on a boat anchored in what somebody considers to be their
back yard, and another, based on law, because our ONLY residence is a boat. If
in addition to the boat, we owned property ashore we would be somewhat
protected from the second type (although that may change very soon if the water
cops of Florida have their way) ENTIRELY BECAUSE we own real property and pay
property tax. One of the first questions cops ask us when they pull alongside
Bandersnatch is "Do you have a residence ashore?". The connection is obvious
to me. Because we do not pay money, in the form of property tax, that finds
its way into the pockets of the cops and the politicians, we are subject to
persecution.
We do have a "home of record" as they would say in the military, at St
Brendan's Isle, along with several thousand other people. It appears on my
vessel's papers, Merchant Marine license and document, drivers license, voter
registration and all other legal documents that require an address. This is
not enough. It does not include the transfer of money from our pocket into the
pockets of our persecutors as property taxes would.
We are the victims and the attackers are the perpetrators, no matter what
position on the attacking team they play everyone involved bears a degree of
responsibility, just as the get-away driver is also guilty of robbing the bank.
"I was just doing my job", is an time-honored defense. You choose your job.
CT, I believe you don't think there is a need to lie to a cop about owning
property because you are holding the handle end of the gun. I'd bet that you
own real property, or pay rent, too, You are not yet the victim you are
running out of town (under orders of the politicians of course).
To be kind, I would like to think that you just don't understand the actual
situation. Now you are much more Cop than you are Livaboard, but when you
retire and if you do live aboard and travel you will change your viewpoint
entirely.
Being run out of town by a cop because we live aboard is not some fantasy. It
happened to us personally in Melbourne, and there are many other municipalities
who do the same or worse. Melbourne (and others) have an "ordinance" aimed
specifically at "livaboard vessels" as has been discussed at length both on
this list and in personal communications with the cops and politicians of
Melbourne. Fortunately for me, Jan does indeed own property ashore so for the
moment we are somewhat safe. But she may want to sell that property some day
and of course it will soon be immaterial if the water cops of Florida have
their way.
As reported in the recent List message about the latest major attack on us
happening as we speak in Florida from the Florida FWC (Fish and Wildlife
Commission) and FDEP, which are now trying to drive all anchored boats with
people on them from the entire state of Florida. Once my mother passes away I
may have to seriously consider moving to another country, driven out of my own
simply because I choose to live on a yacht.
Cops are charged with enforcing the laws politicians make and like to point out
that "they are just doing their job", but cops have great influence on creating
those laws. In fact the new proposal to drive anchored boats from Florida
waters is presented to the Legislature by the Florida Fish and Wildlife
Commission, the most prevalent cops on the water, and the Florida Department of
Environmental Protection. The Police Chief of Marco Island has admitted in
court to being the architect of the restrictive local ordinances there.
In addition cops, especially water cops, have great leeway to make judgment
calls on their own.. For example, speed limits are generally not posted in MPH
or knots but as "Slow Speed" or "No Wake" (an absurdity, as any object moving
through any fluid and any speed produces a wake). What could be more vague and
uncompliable? I can easily drive my dinghy at "6 MPG" with a handheld GPS
aboard as I do in Norfolk at the Mile Zero anchorage, but what constitutes
"Slow Speed" is entirely at the whim of the cop.
lAn example of the lack of such judgement these vague rules assume was an
incident I reported to the List several months ago. As I was leaving the
dinghy dock in Julington Creek I had to pass through a go-slow manatee zone
before I gained the "channel". There was a go-slow manatee zone sign on a
piling some distance from the shore. Once I was offshore from the sign I came
up on plane only to be instantly stopped by a water cop. When I questioned
why he was writing a citation (a warning citation, no fine) he stated that the
sign was installed in the wrong place and I was actually in a manatee zone!
The sign has since been removed so now they have free reign to nail anybody,
anywhere.
It is a lifetime accumulation of incidents like this one (remember the cop in
St Augustine who wrote me a citation when I told him that contrary to his
demands, a fire extinguisher is not required in my dinghy? Or the cop that
stopped us on a highway to issue a citation and fine for a "intermittent brake
light" that was in perfect working order?), some smaller, some much larger,
that forms my view of cops.
On the other side of the coin, the one time I can remember that we needed a cop
was when we were attacked by a family of jet skiers (apparently riding rental
units) when anchored near the border of SC and NC near Little River. The
teen-aged boy of the group apparently though he would give us a thrill so he
passed us at high speed and swerved his machine to throw a large curtain of
seawater through our open saloon windows. Jan was on her cell phone for
almost two hours trying to contact a cop to file a complaint. She was given
the usual run-around but finally talked to a Game Warden who told her if she
could prove who did it he could write a warning citation, but we would have to
take the perp to civil court to get a judgement for any damages to contents of
the saloon (mostly tools and furniture).
While I know in my mind that we need police to keep criminals in check, and
like the Good German I know there must be some good cops out there, but over
the years of my life they have almost completely undermined my respect for
them by their constant adversarial and belligerent attitude, not just toward me
personally, but to everyone I know. Cops just don't seem to know or even care
about the difference between fear and respect. Fear, if shown properly, looks
just like respect and is what is required when dealing with cops. Respect
cannot be demanded, it must be earned,, a far more difficult task.
(CT, just because you seem to think it pertinent ,I also gave several years of
my life to my country in exchange for a Honorable Discharge and a DD-214.)
Livaboards as a group are not criminals, they do not harm people, they do not
steal., On the contrary we have a long history of helping others in need. We
are persecuted simply because we live on a boat. Cops are the instruments of
that persecution, and I, along with everyone else who loves the living aboard
lifestyle, are the victims.
Norm
S/V Bandersnatch
Lying Julington Creek
30 07.695N 081 38.484W
----- Original Message -----
From: CT
To: [email protected]
Sent: 9/29/2008 1:28:21 PM
Subject: Re: [Liveaboard] The LIvaboard Lifestyle
Norm,
You have every right to verbally attack anyone or thing you desire (I fought
for that right) but I have to say we don't live in 1920's Chicago or 1980's New
Orleans. Money does not go into the cops pockets (free coffee at the local
roach coach being my exception). Politicians maybe, Federal, local and state
tax coffers certainly, but the police (marine or land-based - and yes, I work
both) are just doing what they're are directed by statute to do and that for a
salary that does disservice to their risk.
I don't think there's a need to lie to a cop about owning property but I've
never run into that problem personally. Your boat is real property and you
have probably already paid sales taxes on it and might still be paying
registration taxes as well. In effect, you own property. You don't own land
but the tax system in all their efforts to squeeze the public for money missed
the liveaboard, non-land owner. Their fault, not ours. A post office box
shoreside is all that's required for a proof of address.
Were I to vent on the liveaboard/marina issue, it would be against the
environmentalists - they are the prima causa belli in my opinion. Take away the
rules and regulations they forced upon us and you'll find life a little more
resembling nirvana afloat. My opinion, but then, I've never been mainstream
about much.
All the best,
CT
S/V/ Calliste
----- Original Message ----
From: Norm of Bandersnatch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Jeff S <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: A LiveAboardList <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, September 29, 2008 12:06:10 PM
Subject: [Liveaboard] The LIvaboard Lifestyle
Jeff,
There is one other gentleman whom I see often at his boat in Julington Creek,
the green-hulled Tahiti ketch, Tahiti Rover, anchored closest to the marinas.
He is Robbie Johnson and has a cruising cookbook, the Gourmet Underway, or
similar. He is not sociable unless he is holding forth about his victory over
his recent cop attack.
My boat is anchored farthest from the marinas due to draft limitations. Jan
and I are off and on because we are taking care of my elderly mother in Ft
Myers.
You should be aware that the liveaboard lifestyle is under constant attack.
Many Florida municipalities, and I have heard the State itself too, actually
outlaw living aboard a boat, as does Georgia. We are considered to be bums and
tramps, akin to Gypsies, and there are laws against our very existence. Some
weeks ago my nearest neighbor ashore stated that he hated me because: I didn't
pay property taxes (he pays $25K/year for his multi-million dollar house), I
poop in the river (I have a composting toilet) and I am anchored in his sight.
I am considering taking my pension and SS checks and moving to another country
to live out my retirement. Suggestions anyone?
Or I could find a marina in this country somewhere and tie the boat up even
though the boat is self-sufficient at anchor. Rent and utilities would cost me
about half my retirement stipend. It is far more acceptable to the bosses for
someone who lives aboard to do this. It is a lifestyle more similar the lives
of the politicians and cops and more to the point; part of one's rent money
finds its way into their pockets.
"Local cities and counties in Florida have been prohibited by statute 327.60(2)
from regulating the anchoring of non live-aboard vessels even though many of
them have been doing so for years." (from the recent posting)
Notice that this prohibition only applies to "NON-LIVEABOARD" vessels. Locals
are free to outlaw anyone who actually lives aboard his vessel. If you own a
residence somewhere you are a "full time cruiser" instead of a "liveaboard".
This is why cops often ask if you have a home on land. The proper answer is
always "yes". Keep in mind that it is crime to lie to a cop, whether you are
under oath or not. (However, is is perfectly legal for a cop to lie to a
citizen and they often do.)
Notice further that our being declared to be criminals has entirely to do with
owning property ashore or tying up in a marina. The crux of the matter lies in
money, which relates to the greed for power. Paying property taxes on a
residence ashore is the primary source of the money in the politician's and the
cop's wallet. If money flows freely from your pocket to the politician's and
cop's pocket, you are a good citizen, if not, you are a criminal.
I hope you noticed the message posted on this List about the pending major
attack on us by the FWC water cops. I hope you responded and made your
viewpoint known to the address provided.
American society is two-faced. The independent, self-sufficient ,lifestyle is
often respected and admired in literature as the strength of the Pioneers who
built this Country, but in actual fact we are vilified, considered to be
degenerate reprobates and laws are enacted to destroy us, a process going on as
we speak.
If you are considering living aboard a boat you must consider these facts.
These are the man-made conditions the liveaboard has to contend with, and they
are by far the most danger we face, far worse than any weather, mechanical
breakage, or navigation demands.
Our own country, which we spent our lives helping to build and supporting in
many ways, has turned against us and has hired men with guns to destroy us.
Norm
S/V Bandersnatch
Lying Julington Creek
30 07.695N 081 38.484W
----- Original Message -----
From: Jeff S
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 9/27/2008 5:42:59 PM
Subject: Anchored in Julington Creek
Hi Norm,
I saw your posts on the Liveaboard forums. I live in the area and drive over
the bridge every day and have seen the number of boats anchoring up west of the
marinas. Does anyone else live aboard there? My wife and I are talking about
buying a boat and I thought that would be a great place to stay.
Thanks
Jeff
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