I prefer to avoid markers whenever possible. Unlike levels, markers require some amount of configuration to get them to log/not log when desired. They don't "just work."
N Sent from my iPhone from LAX baggage claim, so please forgive brief replies and frequent typos > On Jan 18, 2014, at 14:01, Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Markers all around! No logging levels, just allow markers to have ordinals or > bit-flags to allow more flexible filtering. > > Sorry, nothing useful to add beyond wild speculations. > > >> On 18 January 2014 15:15, Ralph Goers <ralph.go...@dslextreme.com> wrote: >> Actually, here is how I would prefer it. Let’s see if it makes sense to >> anyone else. >> >> FATAL - Hopefully, almost never logged because the system is crashing. >> ERROR - Something affecting the usability of the system occurred. >> WARN - Something not nice, but probably recoverable occurred. May lead to >> errors later. >> INFO - Something of general interest, but not necessarily significant. >> DIAG or DIAGNOSTIC - Events that can be used by operations or users to >> diagnose problems in the system. >> DEBUG - Used by developers for internal debugging. >> VERBOSE - Used to log minute details of the system. As its dictionary >> definition implies this is extremely chatty. >> TRACE - Adds tracing of method entry and exit, possibly object creation and >> initialization. >> >> I believe these should be enough for anybody. I still think CONFIG is a >> Marker at the INFO level. The advantage of being a Marker is that it can be >> enabled regardless of its level and enabling it doesn’t imply enabling other >> levels. >> >> Ralph >> >> >>> On Jan 18, 2014, at 1:03 PM, Gary Gregory <garydgreg...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 2:21 PM, Ralph Goers <ralph.go...@dslextreme.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> STEP? No clue what that means. >>>> >>>> Gary, if you want to implement VERBOSE between INFO and DEBUG I’m OK with >>>> that, but what will that map to in SLF4J, etc. DEBUG? >>> >>> Sounds OK, I can see it as debug data, but for users, instead of developers. >>> >>> Gary >>>> >>>> And yes, something on the web site should document our recommended usage >>>> for levels and markers. >>>> >>>> Ralph >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Jan 18, 2014, at 10:53 AM, Gary Gregory <garydgreg...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Ah, my view of VERBOSE is that it is _more_ information, hence INFO < >>>>> VERBOSE < DEBUG; while it sounds like Ralphs sees it as more DEBUG data. >>>>> >>>>> For me DEBUG data is going to be already verbose, even more than >>>>> 'verbose'. >>>>> >>>>> What is interesting (to me) is that DEBUG is often misused based on this >>>>> basic mix: debug messages can be for users *and/or* for developers, there >>>>> is no distinction in the audience. >>>>> >>>>> For example, as a user, I want to get data to help me debug my >>>>> configuration and my process. As a developer, I want to debug the code. >>>>> These can be two very different set of data. >>>>> >>>>> But we do not have DEBUG_USER and DEBUG_DEV levels. I would see INFO next >>>>> to VERBOSE as useful to users. Then DEBUG and TRACE useful for >>>>> developers. Each app can have its convention of course, but it would be >>>>> nice to have the distinction available through levels for developers to >>>>> use. >>>>> >>>>> I see TRACE as method entry and exit type of logging, *very* *low* level >>>>> stuff. >>>>> >>>>> We could also have both (ducking for projectiles): >>>>> >>>>> INFO >>>>> VERBOSE >>>>> DEBUG >>>>> STEP >>>>> TRACE >>>>> >>>>> Gary >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 12:47 PM, Ralph Goers >>>>>> <ralph.go...@dslextreme.com> wrote: >>>>>> Oops. I just noticed you proposed that VERBOSE be between INFO and >>>>>> DEBUG. Now that I don’t understand. My experience is that VERBOSE is >>>>>> usually more detailed than debug messages, not less. >>>>>> >>>>>> Ralph >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Jan 18, 2014, at 9:44 AM, Ralph Goers <ralph.go...@dslextreme.com> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I understand the need for CONFIG. However it isn’t clear to me whether >>>>>>> it belongs between INFO and WARN or DEBUG and INFO. That is because it >>>>>>> typically would be used to log configuration during startup. That >>>>>>> doesn’t necessarily imply that you would then want to see all INFO >>>>>>> messages as well. Due to that, it would make more sense to me to make >>>>>>> a CONFIG marker. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I don’t really understand the point of FINE or FINER. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On the other hand, VERBOSE does make a bit more sense, but I’m >>>>>>> struggling with how that is any different than TRACE. I guess the idea >>>>>>> is that TRACE is for control flow (entry, exit) and VERBOSE is for more >>>>>>> detailed debug messages? I suppose I can go along with that argument, >>>>>>> but again one could just as easily create a VERBOSE marker and attach >>>>>>> it to either TRACE or DEBUG. I guess I wouldn’t object if VERBOSE was >>>>>>> added as a Level but I’m not really convinced it is necessary either. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ralph >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Jan 18, 2014, at 7:08 AM, Remko Popma <remko.po...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I've always liked Ralph's argument that Markers give users much more >>>>>>>> flexibility than any predefined Levels. >>>>>>>> I would prefer to stick to the log4j/slf4j level names. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 10:32 PM, Gary Gregory >>>>>>>>> <garydgreg...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>> Interesting, I have been wanting a VERBOSE level better INFO and >>>>>>>>> DEBUG. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> See >>>>>>>>> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/logging-log4j-dev/201310.mbox/%3CCACZkXPxNwYbn__CbXUqFhC7e3Q=kee94j+udhe8+6jiubcz...@mail.gmail.com%3E >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> You'll have to dig a little in that ref to find my proposal, sorry >>>>>>>>> I'm on my phone ATM. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> It sounds like we see logging configuration messages differently >>>>>>>>> though. I do not like the name CONFIG because it does not sound like >>>>>>>>> a level to me. Otoh, many command lines have a verbose AND a debug >>>>>>>>> switch. So it makes sense to me too have corresponding levels. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Gary >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -------- Original message -------- >>>>>>>>> From: Nick Williams >>>>>>>>> Date:01/17/2014 23:50 (GMT-05:00) >>>>>>>>> To: Log4J Developers List >>>>>>>>> Subject: Web Issues, Logging Levels, and GA >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Wanted to update y'all. As you know, I've been very absent lately due >>>>>>>>> to the book consuming every minute of my free time. I know I haven't >>>>>>>>> been contributing my due, and for that please accept my sincerest >>>>>>>>> apologies. The book is finally done (goes on sale next month!) and I >>>>>>>>> can get back to regular life. I'm going to be out of town for the >>>>>>>>> next week on a much-needed vacation with very limited access to >>>>>>>>> email. I'll be back the weekend of January 25-26, and that weekend I >>>>>>>>> will be spending almost the entire time finally dealing with the 8-10 >>>>>>>>> web application-related bugs. After that, I don't see any >>>>>>>>> encumbrances to releasing 2.0.0.GA. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Except... >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Logging Levels. We kinda-sorta talked about this a few months ago, >>>>>>>>> and a few months before that, and a few months before that, but we >>>>>>>>> never actually DID anything about it. It's clear by now that my >>>>>>>>> "extendable enum" proposal (that would be a drop-in replacement for >>>>>>>>> and binary compatible with the current Level enum) is not going to be >>>>>>>>> accepted. Absent any other proposals, I suggest we add the following >>>>>>>>> new levels before GA: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> CONFIG - Between INFO and WARN, mapped to INFO for bridges to other >>>>>>>>> frameworks that don't have an equivalent level >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> FINE - Between DEBUG and TRACE, mapped to TRACE for bridges to other >>>>>>>>> frameworks that don't have an equivalent level >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'll let y'all chat about that over the next week. ;-) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Be back soon, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Nick >>>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: log4j-dev-unsubscr...@logging.apache.org >>>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: log4j-dev-h...@logging.apache.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> E-Mail: garydgreg...@gmail.com | ggreg...@apache.org >>>>> Java Persistence with Hibernate, Second Edition >>>>> JUnit in Action, Second Edition >>>>> Spring Batch in Action >>>>> Blog: http://garygregory.wordpress.com >>>>> Home: http://garygregory.com/ >>>>> Tweet! http://twitter.com/GaryGregory >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> E-Mail: garydgreg...@gmail.com | ggreg...@apache.org >>> Java Persistence with Hibernate, Second Edition >>> JUnit in Action, Second Edition >>> Spring Batch in Action >>> Blog: http://garygregory.wordpress.com >>> Home: http://garygregory.com/ >>> Tweet! http://twitter.com/GaryGregory > > > > -- > Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com>
